Washington and Kiev are negotiating a bilateral security agreement that mirrors the 10-year commitments Ukraine has entered into with several European powers.
That is what the West publically says, to the last man. Lindsey Graham said to the effect that giving them money is a great thing because they will fight to the last man. I don’t see how fighting to the last man is a rational choice, given they were much better options than choosing alignment with the EU and NATO. Then again, American foreign policy makes no sense, such as funding and supplying Israel. Israel and Gaza is not an American interest. Just like Ukraine, the US has no need to participate in aiding a country over a region like Gaza. These are purely liabilities for the US.
The Israel one I at least understand. Israel is a long time ally and is a powerful player in the Middle East. Supporting Israel would be consistent with what we’ve been doing for nearly a century.
I don’t agree with it personally- I would have never killed the Iran Nuclear deal for example. But I can at least understand it.
What I don’t understand is the obsession with Ukraine. Ukraine has been under Russian control for centuries. Under Russian empire back during the Tsar times. Under USSR. And even after the dissolution of the USSR in 1991 the Ukrainian government was pro-Russian.
It wasn’t until 2014 where the Euromaidan protests led to violence which forced the pro-Russian government to flee the country and installed a pro-Western government. Immediately that government started cooperating with the CIA and other western institutions and a few days later, Russians tanks roll into Crimea and little green men pop up in Donbas.
What I don’t get is the fear of Russia taking Ukraine as some sort of domino effect for the rest of Europe. Russia has controlled that territory for literally hundreds of years. Why was it perfectly OK for the entirety of the Cold War up until 2014- and now it’s the end of the world?
Why does it matter to us what corrupt eastern European government rules over the Ukrainian people? The Ukrainian government isn’t some bastion of democracy. It looks better compared to Russia in some areas (not a high bar) but it is nowhere near a Western country like is presented on mainstream media.
They ban political parties (including one that had something like 15% of the vote), delayed an election, they lie all the time, they incorporated a literal neonazi white supremacist militia into their official national guard apparatus and used their popularity to drive up recruitment.
They bomb civilian areas just like Russia does, they cut off water to Crimea (their own supposed citizens- no wonder crimeans prefer living under Russia), the president was caught with secret offshore shell companies… I could go on and on
We sacrifice so much for the Ukrainian war effort (inflation & high interest rates are a direct consequence of Ukrainian war) while people in the US struggle to make rent and pay for food.
Meanwhile that support is looking increasingly like it only delays the inevitable. Russia will eventually win (because we don’t actually want to help enough for Ukraine to win, just lose slowly), so Ukraine gets the worst of both worlds. Their country is destroyed and their people die needlessly- and they lose the war anyway.
It’s honestly insane. Cynical sadists are in charge of the world. I think this is a strong indicator that we are headed towards another global war like the early 20th century. Almost everyone - including so called leftists- are becoming neoliberal jingoists.
Pathetic Russian troll, trying the ol’ concern troll tactic. “Oh, we all know Russia is going to win, why make the Ukrainians, who BTW are just as bad as Putin, suffer even more by delaying the inevitable?” No one on here buys that shit, go back to facebook and X where your propaganda will find more fertile ground.
You know who suffers in a war? The average person. Not Putin, not the corrupt oligarchs, not the defense contractor board of directors, not the congressmen, and not the journalists.
It’s the average American who finds it harder and harder to live, the Ukrainian who is now living through power outages, the Ukrainian man who gets kidnapped off the street, the young Russian men who get thrown into a meat grinder. The families who live without their husbands and sons. Who get their living rooms blown up as a necessary evil. It’s the billions of poor in the global south who live through the economic instability caused by global inflation. Remember that every 0.5% increase in unemployment, tens of thousands of people die. There are similar relationships with rising food prices.
And when real war kicks off (which is inevitable) this will seem like a cake walk.
Just because you cannot envision another perspective besides constant war and death that you’ve been impressively convinced is somehow morally superior- doesn’t mean other people can’t.
Let’s see now, who started that war? Oh right it was Putin. No one else in the entire world (except maybe a few of Putin’s cronies) wanted that war, least of all the average person–including average Russian, who is suffering far more than average Americans because of it, since Americans are basically not suffering at all because of it and many pay no attention to it at all.
You’re saying that since average people suffer from the wars started by dictators like Putin, that we should all just roll over and let them own the world. “Oh, just let Putin have Ukraine (and then inevitably) the other former SSRs, and if that goes well, maybe a little more here and a little more there, that way you won’t suffer so much, which is totally your own fault for resisting.” Fuck that shit, troll.
Europe and NATO will not let that happen because it’s simply too big a threat to Europe. Putin is ruining a whole generation of Russians’ lives and futures along with Ukraine’s, just to satisfy his impossible fever dream of building an empire, and it will only destroy Russia in the process. You should be trying to help us stop him now if you want to prevent more suffering for the rest of the world.
The money US sends to Ukraine is a drop in the bucket and has no effect on the life of the average American–there are far bigger factors that affect our economy and our lives than that pittance of the military budget, much of which we’d be spending anyway to replenish our inventory with up-to-date supplies. You know how our MIC works. It’s a machine far bigger than average Americans have influence over, so even if people buy your propaganda it means nothing to that machine. Our lives are affected much more by domestic policies. Your propaganda efforts fomenting social unrest have been much more successful in that area golf clap but it won’t help Russia survive what Putin is doing to it.
Just because Russia illegally invaded does not automatically make it a good idea for us to drag out the war. The US supporting Ukraine extends the life of the war. Our actions directly impact whether tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people die.
It’s a question of looking at the potential positives and the potential negatives. And the outcome of that analysis depends on what incentives you prioritize and which you don’t find important.
The total value of Ukrainian aid is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall economic effects of the war. Right at the onset of the war, our inflation jumped up to nearly 10% until the Federal Reserve stepped in and pumped up interest rates to try and bring it to heel.
This has consequences. They seem arbritarily and abstract because it’s just numbers but they have serious nationwide (and global) impacts on everyone- especially the poorest members of society. The difference between a working class individual being able to afford or not afford a mortgage. Paying 20% or 30% in credit card interest. Parents who have to decide whether food or rent is more important.
Take that and multiply by hundreds of millions. We are sacrificing our own people (including everyone else) for the benefit of our defense contractors.
NATO does not actually care about Russia controlling Ukraine. It’s not of strategic value. Russia has directly or indirectly controlled Ukraine for centuries. Nobody cared until 2014. Russia is infinitely more invested in Ukraine than the west. Which is why Russia is able to easily outproduce the EU and the US combined in artillery shells- even when Ukraine is desperately fighting a 1:10 difference in artillery fire.
I will tell you what is going to happen. Sometime in the next couple of years, the war will end in a negotiated settlement. Ukraine will sign a peace treaty and become a neutered failed state while Russia annexes roughly the areas they control right now.
Except instead of just letting it happen quickly, it will happen over half a decade resulting in magnitudes more damage and death.
You know why we will sacrifice Ukraine? Because of the reasons I outlined above. A) funnel taxpayer $$$ into Lockheed Martin and friends B) make Russia bleed for every inch of land they take
The powers that be could not care less about Ukrainian sovereignty of the lives of the tens of millions who will bear the consequences for the rest of their lives.
You have been duped into adopting a brutal and cynical amoral worldview and the worst part is- you believe it’s the morally superior option.
Putin will sacrifice everyone and everything in Russia to try and achieve his fever dream of taking back Ukraine and the other post-Soviet states before he dies, and it just ain’t gonna happen. There is not the slightest possibility of it. The best he can hope for is to keep some portion of the Ukrainian territory that he already had before he started his idiotic enterprise, and he will have ruined Russia for generations in the process.
Also, I would imagine that once Putin’s gone, whoever comes after him will cede the territory back to Ukraine because the West will demand that, if Russia wants to be allowed to rejoin the world economy. All that suffering was for nothing but Putin’s ego. That’s what dictators do, and why we have to stop them, not appease them.
Ending my responses to you now.
With that argument: Why is it rational for Russia to fight to the last man? They’re pushing half a million killed and wounded, and billions of dollars worth of equipment. They’re living in a war economy. For what? Why don’t they just stop?
Russia can stop at any time without conceding territory or seeing their people be mistreated or killed in occupied territory. Any argument that “this would all be over if Ukraine gave up” can just be flipped around.
That is what the West publically says, to the last man. Lindsey Graham said to the effect that giving them money is a great thing because they will fight to the last man. I don’t see how fighting to the last man is a rational choice, given they were much better options than choosing alignment with the EU and NATO. Then again, American foreign policy makes no sense, such as funding and supplying Israel. Israel and Gaza is not an American interest. Just like Ukraine, the US has no need to participate in aiding a country over a region like Gaza. These are purely liabilities for the US.
The Israel one I at least understand. Israel is a long time ally and is a powerful player in the Middle East. Supporting Israel would be consistent with what we’ve been doing for nearly a century.
I don’t agree with it personally- I would have never killed the Iran Nuclear deal for example. But I can at least understand it.
What I don’t understand is the obsession with Ukraine. Ukraine has been under Russian control for centuries. Under Russian empire back during the Tsar times. Under USSR. And even after the dissolution of the USSR in 1991 the Ukrainian government was pro-Russian.
It wasn’t until 2014 where the Euromaidan protests led to violence which forced the pro-Russian government to flee the country and installed a pro-Western government. Immediately that government started cooperating with the CIA and other western institutions and a few days later, Russians tanks roll into Crimea and little green men pop up in Donbas.
What I don’t get is the fear of Russia taking Ukraine as some sort of domino effect for the rest of Europe. Russia has controlled that territory for literally hundreds of years. Why was it perfectly OK for the entirety of the Cold War up until 2014- and now it’s the end of the world?
Why does it matter to us what corrupt eastern European government rules over the Ukrainian people? The Ukrainian government isn’t some bastion of democracy. It looks better compared to Russia in some areas (not a high bar) but it is nowhere near a Western country like is presented on mainstream media.
They ban political parties (including one that had something like 15% of the vote), delayed an election, they lie all the time, they incorporated a literal neonazi white supremacist militia into their official national guard apparatus and used their popularity to drive up recruitment.
They bomb civilian areas just like Russia does, they cut off water to Crimea (their own supposed citizens- no wonder crimeans prefer living under Russia), the president was caught with secret offshore shell companies… I could go on and on
We sacrifice so much for the Ukrainian war effort (inflation & high interest rates are a direct consequence of Ukrainian war) while people in the US struggle to make rent and pay for food.
Meanwhile that support is looking increasingly like it only delays the inevitable. Russia will eventually win (because we don’t actually want to help enough for Ukraine to win, just lose slowly), so Ukraine gets the worst of both worlds. Their country is destroyed and their people die needlessly- and they lose the war anyway.
It’s honestly insane. Cynical sadists are in charge of the world. I think this is a strong indicator that we are headed towards another global war like the early 20th century. Almost everyone - including so called leftists- are becoming neoliberal jingoists.
How much does Putin pay you?
Feel free to share an original thought if you think you have the capacity, I’m listening
Pathetic Russian troll, trying the ol’ concern troll tactic. “Oh, we all know Russia is going to win, why make the Ukrainians, who BTW are just as bad as Putin, suffer even more by delaying the inevitable?” No one on here buys that shit, go back to facebook and X where your propaganda will find more fertile ground.
Slava Ukraini
You know who suffers in a war? The average person. Not Putin, not the corrupt oligarchs, not the defense contractor board of directors, not the congressmen, and not the journalists.
It’s the average American who finds it harder and harder to live, the Ukrainian who is now living through power outages, the Ukrainian man who gets kidnapped off the street, the young Russian men who get thrown into a meat grinder. The families who live without their husbands and sons. Who get their living rooms blown up as a necessary evil. It’s the billions of poor in the global south who live through the economic instability caused by global inflation. Remember that every 0.5% increase in unemployment, tens of thousands of people die. There are similar relationships with rising food prices.
And when real war kicks off (which is inevitable) this will seem like a cake walk.
Just because you cannot envision another perspective besides constant war and death that you’ve been impressively convinced is somehow morally superior- doesn’t mean other people can’t.
Let’s see now, who started that war? Oh right it was Putin. No one else in the entire world (except maybe a few of Putin’s cronies) wanted that war, least of all the average person–including average Russian, who is suffering far more than average Americans because of it, since Americans are basically not suffering at all because of it and many pay no attention to it at all.
You’re saying that since average people suffer from the wars started by dictators like Putin, that we should all just roll over and let them own the world. “Oh, just let Putin have Ukraine (and then inevitably) the other former SSRs, and if that goes well, maybe a little more here and a little more there, that way you won’t suffer so much, which is totally your own fault for resisting.” Fuck that shit, troll.
Europe and NATO will not let that happen because it’s simply too big a threat to Europe. Putin is ruining a whole generation of Russians’ lives and futures along with Ukraine’s, just to satisfy his impossible fever dream of building an empire, and it will only destroy Russia in the process. You should be trying to help us stop him now if you want to prevent more suffering for the rest of the world.
The money US sends to Ukraine is a drop in the bucket and has no effect on the life of the average American–there are far bigger factors that affect our economy and our lives than that pittance of the military budget, much of which we’d be spending anyway to replenish our inventory with up-to-date supplies. You know how our MIC works. It’s a machine far bigger than average Americans have influence over, so even if people buy your propaganda it means nothing to that machine. Our lives are affected much more by domestic policies. Your propaganda efforts fomenting social unrest have been much more successful in that area golf clap but it won’t help Russia survive what Putin is doing to it.
Just because Russia illegally invaded does not automatically make it a good idea for us to drag out the war. The US supporting Ukraine extends the life of the war. Our actions directly impact whether tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people die.
It’s a question of looking at the potential positives and the potential negatives. And the outcome of that analysis depends on what incentives you prioritize and which you don’t find important.
The total value of Ukrainian aid is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall economic effects of the war. Right at the onset of the war, our inflation jumped up to nearly 10% until the Federal Reserve stepped in and pumped up interest rates to try and bring it to heel.
This has consequences. They seem arbritarily and abstract because it’s just numbers but they have serious nationwide (and global) impacts on everyone- especially the poorest members of society. The difference between a working class individual being able to afford or not afford a mortgage. Paying 20% or 30% in credit card interest. Parents who have to decide whether food or rent is more important.
Take that and multiply by hundreds of millions. We are sacrificing our own people (including everyone else) for the benefit of our defense contractors.
NATO does not actually care about Russia controlling Ukraine. It’s not of strategic value. Russia has directly or indirectly controlled Ukraine for centuries. Nobody cared until 2014. Russia is infinitely more invested in Ukraine than the west. Which is why Russia is able to easily outproduce the EU and the US combined in artillery shells- even when Ukraine is desperately fighting a 1:10 difference in artillery fire.
I will tell you what is going to happen. Sometime in the next couple of years, the war will end in a negotiated settlement. Ukraine will sign a peace treaty and become a neutered failed state while Russia annexes roughly the areas they control right now.
Except instead of just letting it happen quickly, it will happen over half a decade resulting in magnitudes more damage and death.
You know why we will sacrifice Ukraine? Because of the reasons I outlined above. A) funnel taxpayer $$$ into Lockheed Martin and friends B) make Russia bleed for every inch of land they take
The powers that be could not care less about Ukrainian sovereignty of the lives of the tens of millions who will bear the consequences for the rest of their lives.
You have been duped into adopting a brutal and cynical amoral worldview and the worst part is- you believe it’s the morally superior option.
Putin will sacrifice everyone and everything in Russia to try and achieve his fever dream of taking back Ukraine and the other post-Soviet states before he dies, and it just ain’t gonna happen. There is not the slightest possibility of it. The best he can hope for is to keep some portion of the Ukrainian territory that he already had before he started his idiotic enterprise, and he will have ruined Russia for generations in the process.
Also, I would imagine that once Putin’s gone, whoever comes after him will cede the territory back to Ukraine because the West will demand that, if Russia wants to be allowed to rejoin the world economy. All that suffering was for nothing but Putin’s ego. That’s what dictators do, and why we have to stop them, not appease them.
Ending my responses to you now.
With that argument: Why is it rational for Russia to fight to the last man? They’re pushing half a million killed and wounded, and billions of dollars worth of equipment. They’re living in a war economy. For what? Why don’t they just stop?
Russia can stop at any time without conceding territory or seeing their people be mistreated or killed in occupied territory. Any argument that “this would all be over if Ukraine gave up” can just be flipped around.