Some people’s lives are so bad they would rather focus on personal survival than electing the good cop over the bad cop, both of whom would likely make their lives either a little or a lot worse every single year. “Our country is at stake” only really matters if you have systemic benefits from this country- otherwise, it just seems like it’s a plea for victims of this country to take your comfort into consideration above anything else. Sure, we’re on the precipice of a fascist takeover where even the white people in gated neighborhoods could start feeling even fractionally as bad as people of color currently do, but it might be worth considering this perspective isn’t just some petty or ignorant thing- it’s a rotten system created by racist white men that might not be worth participating in because even if the system is perfectly fixed, there will always be people on top and people on the bottom. At least with Kamala, there is a hope of traveling farther away from that “racist white man who begs me for votes and never delivers on promises” trope, so it doesn’t surprise me one bit.

Standing by and saying told you so isn’t even that different to “you deserve it” if you aren’t stepping in to help prevent it.

Your vote isn’t the entirety of your voice though. If you telegraph that you will vote for Biden this far out, Biden’s campaign advisors probably won’t tell him that reversing course is the best decision for his reelection. If you say you will not vote for him due to Gaza, even if you secretly plan on voting for him, you have more power to change their policy and help Palestinians as a whole. This doesn’t have to be a discussion on trump vs Biden. This can be about trying to strategically pivot Biden in a way that avoids getting arrested because trump sure as hell isn’t going to fix things.

This is smelling a lot like the republican “Not everything you don’t like is racist/fascist”

How different is the person with the gun to the person who is standing nearby saying “you deserve this”?

Corporations showing record profits tells me that it’s harder for everyday people. Record profits means cut hours, stagnated wages, outsourced labor, more expensive goods, “shrinkflation”, cheaper components, dialed back safety standards, crunch, making salaried employees perma-lance so they don’t have to worry about benefits anymore, ghost job postings that are never intended on being filled because being understaffed is the new normal, etc. And then corporations use that record profit to bribe the government into keeping it just as shitty as it is or making it worse for us.

The system is working as intended to siphon as much money and labor as it can from workers and consumers so the metrics focus on that. Then they have the nerve to tell us that we’re being crazy for thinking that things are getting difficult.

I had to return my bone conduction headphones because it tickled my ears too much when I turned it up so loud that I could hear it over my bike machine. My wired headphones kept dying from my sweat, so I just ended up getting some waterproof-ish JBL in-ear headphones so I don’t have to worry about destroying any of my wireless headphones.

Apple has a masterclass of tiering their products in just a way so that in every tier but the upper tiers, you’re giving up something really important. If you spend the least you possibly can on a MacBook, apple guarantees you’re going to have a very bad time for “doing the bare minimum to be seen with a laptop with an apple logo on it”. Their whole tier system is an exercise in “how can we get away with fucking up these things just enough so the customer feels like it is necessary to spend a little bit more” every step of the way. Then they make it unupgradable so you can’t sidestep their crafted feature tier system.

Don’t have compete with BYD if you don’t allow them to be competition in the US.

Amazing discourse! Also, apologies in advance for being all over the place with my response because ADHD and dyslexia are hard when trying not to look like an idiot online haha.

Unfortunately I don’t think Biden is that; and I don’t think that can happen in the 8 months we have left.

This is kind of where we might differ here. Where Biden is staunchly pro-israel, his advisors know how much this issue is affecting his polling and could possibly get him to reverse his position if it becomes clear his position will lose him the election. I think that Biden’s difficult decision is between doing the right thing, knowing that there could be a false flag attack that will happen and cause immense blowback against him among moderates (as well as known civilian casualties) or doing the politically expedient thing and waiting it out and hoping people forget about Palestine (guaranteeing civilian casualties) before November to prevent trump becoming president.

I think a big thing causing apathy is the fact that conservative voters want to break things and republican representatives happily oblige their requests, where the liberals and progressives generally want rights enshrined, which is nearly impossible with how this government is currently set up to run, so liberals and progressives never really get what they want unless it’s attached to some pro-corporate or anti-privacy bill (or is watered down by republicans who just want to break it). From the perspective of someone not on the right, it seems like the government is broken because important things are never passed and terrible things are always passed. At some point, you start to think it’s by design since the people who represent you never fight for you like the republican representatives fight “for their constituents” (there’s a whole conversation about manufactured consent and propaganda to be had here, but to a conservative person, they at least are getting what they’ve been convinced they want).

I think some leftists are also accelerationists and would rather the worst case scenario happen so we as a society have to face the problems we’ve caused instead of slowly bleeding out, one minority group at a time. I’m not sure I’d put myself in this group, but knowing where our tax dollars are sent and seeing the carnage it creates even under a democratic president has made me view the system as inherently abusive. Being told that any amount of genocide could be classified as a “lesser evil” is such a wild take in my opinion and I’m not sure I could ever see a perspective in which my morals could bend like that to accommodate a president who would at least make my life easier than the other person when both of them have genocidal intent.

This is getting to be long and ranty, so I should probably address your 4 points.

“How will letting trump win advance leftist goals” Metaphorically, if this was the trolly problem, leftists would rather push the trolly off the tracks or remove the people from the rails rather than pull the lever. If trump were to win and America did descend into a hellscape, I’d hope that anyone moderate and to the left would be willing to not accept that as reality. It would be 2 steps back, 10 steps forward if done correctly, which is way easier said than done, but if fascism’s legitimately knocking at the door, you don’t let it waltz in. You fix the gate outside so fascists can’t get to your door again. Biden has appointed Garland to oversee the process to keep fascism out, which has failed spectacularly because securing our electoral process against fascists wasn’t as important as possibly creating a political martyr. Just the fact that Trump is able to run again after J6 is reason enough for a lot of people to believe this political process has become farcical.

“Things that need addressing are being blocked by the GOP” This will never not be the case though. It feels like we’re stuck in a purgatory where the democrats can continually to slide to the right and we’re forced to vote for them because a lame duck political party can never be worse than a fascist one. All while giving away our privacy, our ability to purchase a house or have the financial means to raise a child, our labor rights, our public land, our 3rd spaces, our clean water, etc because the alternative would be all of this plus fascism. It’s not a democratic choice at this point. Either we have a malignant group who wants to destroy America or we choose the alternative however bad they might also be. Would people be okay voting for trump if hitler was running against him? At what point do you throw up your arms and say something has to change? That point for me and many others is now.

“are progressive representatives traitors or is something else going on” I think there’s probably some nuance missing specifically with these representatives when it comes to Israel Palestine. To change their tune on something that has been propagandized to us for decades as well as the collective understanding that antizionism actually isn’t the same as antisemitism, I can give a bit of grace for politicians being slow to act or even speak when trying to also not embolden racists. Having a megaphone that big can cause a lot of damage if you speak too quickly. But being 6 months late feels long regardless. And feeling like you no longer are represented by someone who calls themselves progressive is fair, so it’s up to them to make it up to constituents and it’s up to constituents to forgive and restore support if positive and real action is made. I do suspect there is quite a bit of astro turfing going on everywhere honestly. Propaganda like that works because it takes existing issues and amplifies them to become a political flashpoint. But this isn’t “teachers are putting litter boxes in classrooms because kids identify as cats” here. It’s live footage of kids getting bombed from our phone and knowing Biden is bypassing congress to make it happen. It’s a legitimate concern whether it has been amplified or not. I’m open to hear why I should consider their lives less important than mine, but I’m not sure I’m going to budge on my views there.

“Biden acting against Israel majorly affects moderates and their likelihood to vote for him as well as a false flag attack being likely to have massive blowback” I fully agree with you here. If there is another attack right after Biden pulls aid, it doesn’t matter if it was the right thing to do, Biden will be crucified for it. I suppose we should get some counterintelligence people over there to make sure to prevent something like that. But even if Biden were to step down if another attack happened, I’m not sure if any moderate would vote for a democrat for a couple election cycles. Unfortunately for this game of political chess, I don’t adjust my moral line in the sand based on popularity. If there was ever an issue to be a single issue voter on, I suspect it might be this one.

I’ll give you a glimpse into leftist spaces real quick: most people in there thinks Bernie, AOC, Warren, and even Katie porter are sellouts/traitors due to being slow or silent on their support of global colonialist projects. Likening them to a Kristen Sinema-esque person in progressive’s clothing. Having them agree with Biden not only reinforces this opinion leftists have of them, but it becomes plainly obvious that none of them would have jobs anymore if Biden doesn’t win, so it’s in their best interest to capitulate towards the status quo.

If he was to break our arms partnerships with Israel and abstains from all future UN votes on Israel (which in no means fixes the situation here or abroad), I’m sure progressives could go back to holding their nose and voting for him. Honestly, so much shit needs to be addressed that’s being ignored. The fact that there’s multiple “cop cities” being built in the US is appalling and worthy of withholding voting for someone who won’t address that alone, but still, progressives and leftists are used to holding our noses when it comes to horrific things we vote for, which is probably why hearing that we might be withholding due to genocide, liberals are collectively freaking out.

As far as the limits of his capitulation, he doesn’t have to worry about liberals as they’ll vote for him even if he’s literally committing a genocide, so I’m not worried about them unless gas prices start to rise and they blame him for it. Republicans have been poisoned against democrats for decades- I honestly think maybe only 5% of Nikki haley voters would consider voting for Biden. The Arab community are watching their homes and families getting decimated with the help of Biden, so it’d honestly be hard to win them back through capitulation (even though he should try). Leftists and to a greater extent progressives are the people phone banking, going door to door, getting people registered, working polls, etc, and while their numbers aren’t great, losing them is really rough for his chances at winning.

I think if he broke our arms deals, the right would scream that he’s pro-hamas like they’ve been doing this whole time. CNN and other establishment news agencies might also saying that too since their profits relies on the status quo staying firm and headlines being emotionally charged. Immediately AIPAC donations would be halted and they would push candidates who are pro Israel to run against anyone who calls what is happening a genocide (this is already happening). Winning statewide elections would become more difficult if Biden capitulates to leftists and progressives with regards to financing a campaign. I think the backfire is less against a specific voting bloc and more with the sudden stoppage of political donations. Maybe he’s waiting until AIPAC can’t sponsor competition for state elections before voting season, but it’s at the cost of Palestinian lives obviously. I’m also of a mind that the better and more relatable your ideas are, the less campaign money you need to advertise (to a certain extent). So honestly, if Biden wanted to be really sure he’d win instead of just winning back progressives and leftists, he should honestly pull out all the stops and push for popular policies. Call on congress to kill the filibuster and pack the court if you need to.

Honestly (and this is the point I thought you were going to make) there are more Nikki Haley voters than leftists in this country. I think nazis/stormfront/proud boys are too many, but not enough to influence an election.

The issue I’m seeing with Biden not giving concessions to leftists and progressives is that they’re mainly the ones who have boots on the ground helping Biden get elected. Without politically active people who believe they can influence Biden helping him win, I’m not seeing any hope for his chances. The secondary effect is that once you lose leftists and progressives, they’re VERY vocal online about why they aren’t happy, which also hurts Biden’s chances. So leftists and progressives might not be as numerous as Nikki Haley voters, but they still have influence over how people perceive this administration. I’m not sure if that effect is even quantifiable, or what matters more between the Nikki haley voters who choose to vote for him or the progressives/leftists who inadvertently cause apathy. Who knows. But if he cares about winning (which is still debatable as far as I’m concerned), he’d start giving concessions fast.

I’m sure nazis/stormfront/proud boys are also a useful tool for trump to get re-elected and he definitely didn’t start changing his policy to appease them… We aren’t going to agree on this, obviously. You can’t change your base without changing your policy eventually. And if Biden were to suddenly grow a spine and decide to be more progressive, the Nikki Haley voters will suddenly flip to being trump voters (or any reactionary equivalent to him) because they feel lied to. At best, Nikki Haley voters means Biden will be stuck politically, not able to move left even an inch. And at worst, he is free to move as far right as he wants due to liberals being generally okay with voting for him regardless of his support of genocide.

Like I said, we aren’t going to agree on this.

When we allied with the Soviet Union and china, we weren’t welcoming them into our country and into our political influence. We were working with them for a common cause of defeating the nazis. Biden is welcoming Haley Voters into his campaign and they will remain there even after (if) Biden wins the election. The room is full of conservatives, so it should make plenty of sense why leftists and progressives would rather leave the room than stick around people who want them dead.

If Biden moved any more right, he’d be trump. The only thing Biden has left that’s vaguely progressive is not wanting to kill people who are queer. If pinkwashed fascism is enough for you, that’s fine, but you have to understand that other people have higher standards.

Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas. We could likely go on with these in perpetuity. Also, a lot of Nazis were friends of the US considering Operation Paperclip happened.

Also, why would Biden need to move his policies if he’s pretty conservative to begin with? More oil drilling than when trump was president. Horrible border policy. Strike busting. No protections against all the bigoted state level laws. No Supreme Court packing. No nominations for an attorney general who would actually prevent trump from rising to power again (likely because trump is probably the only person Biden even has a chance of beating in an election). Green energy initiatives that are so poorly thought out that it now costs more to install solar than before. Wanting to sign a bill to remove a competing social media platform under the supervision of Musk and Zuckerberg. Bypassing congress to send arms to Israel to support a genocide purely to acquire land to compete with china’s new trade route.

Biden is willing to become a hawkish republican to win on the democrat ticket and to be seen as “strong” to would-be republican voters because he knows he’s lost the left. If you’re okay with the US continually walking right with every democrat and running right with every republican, just keep doing what you’re doing.

I suppose you’ve heard that old adage of “if a person sits at a table with 9 nazis, there are 10 nazis at the table”. When trump welcomed the proud boys to his campaign, I had no doubt in my mind he was willing to cooperate with them to enact policy that would strengthen his coalition, and I feel the same about Biden with Haley Voters. It doesn’t help your case that he’s already pretty conservative to begin with.

Welcoming Haley voters is moving right. Defunding the UNRWA is moving right. The spending bill he was happy to sign still sends billions to Israel. Also, in that bill, it would limit aid to the Palestinian Authority if “the Palestinians initiate an International Criminal Court (ICC) judicially authorized investigation, or actively supports such an investigation, that subjects Israeli nationals to an investigation for alleged crimes against Palestinians.” Biden being more than willing to sign a “snitches get stitches” bill, bullying the rest of the world into letting Israel do whatever they want surely isn’t moving left.

He had no issues welcoming Nikki Haley voters to become part of his base probably because he knows how hard this election will be to win without the help of progressives and leftists. But he chose to move right instead of left, so he shouldn’t be surprised when people start treating him like a 2000s era republican.

I’m not sure if calling “the US chose to finally stop vetoing UN resolutions” as action. They didn’t vote in the affirmative. By the time the current administration does something to actually change things like refusing to send weapons, there won’t be any more Palestinians left who haven’t forever lost their family, home, or life.

This country was founded under genocide and fascism and continues to this day. We still have legalized slavery that we support every time we buy tomatoes at the grocery store as well as our tax dollars. Anti-protest legislation and weaponry are being pushed every single year so much that you can now be considered a domestic terrorist if you protest on a road or pipeline depending on the state. We are relatively comfortable as a direct result of us taking advantage of the global south and continued colonialism projects. The more the unsustainable status-quo is extended, the more people will want to burn shit to the ground because they’re seeing their friends and family struggling with absolutely no help from a government that would rather bomb brown kids and bail out corporations and practice insider trading than help them out. They are having to choose to never have children and never own a home because of the status quo. Thinking voting in the same system that got us into this mess will fix it is naive. Should trump even be allowed to run if we were a real democracy? Should citizens get any say in if we’re perpetuating a genocide if we were a real democracy? If you think voting for biden will “save democracy”, you obviously think we have more time than we actually have.

Voting 3rd party is an answer to the wrong question. The question of “how do we fight off fascism” can’t be solved at the ballot box, and it can’t be solved by someone who refuses to treat threats of fascism harshly and swiftly or even help bolster defenses against it. Voting for someone who is trying their hardest to lose this election isn’t going to fix this. Voting 3rd party isn’t going to fix this. Being convinced that the government will be our saviors against themselves means you only need to be engaged in politics when it’s time to vote. Get to know your neighbors. Physically defend the most vulnerable against those who are willing to “just follow orders” from a fascist government (state or federal). Sabotage and protest and strike until the capitalists and government start bleeding money and are willing to operate in good faith. If you think that’s too much work, go ahead and vote for biden and blame leftists when he inevitably loses. Fascism is already here, but it might start affecting you soon.

If this person’s beliefs are sincerely held, showing people on the internet the “the right way” to go about being serious about privacy is an impossible task. One can’t be on the World Wide Web and “be the change they wish see” (i.e. not be on the web) with regards to their privacy perspective.

And I’m not sure if it’s defeatist to state that all of us, just by being online, likely have some hooks in our mouths. It’s just the cost we pay for not being luddites. Yes, there’s benefits to not having a ton of hooks in us, which is why we do what we do, but even one hook is enough to steal your private info and sell it to everyone. We’re posting to the World Wide Web after all, not Gopher/Gemini/Onion. Hell, this goes beyond the internet since the DMV freely sells your personal information too. We make these limited sacrifices so we have an actual community instead of feeling like we’re self-righteous in our loneliness.