bullying works. if it didn’t, bullies would do something else.
then stop doing it ibstead of pretending to care ffs
It’s funny cause as far as I can tell, Americans are the ones pretending to suddenly care about Arabs.
Americans have cared about arabs one way or the other since 2001, we had wars over this, we took in refugees and interpreters. No one older than 12 thinks this is sudden.
What a strange comment. They’re being genocided. I’m imagining someone in WW2 being like “well now you suddenly care about Jews when you find out the holocaust is happening”, as if that was a bad thing.
It is a bad thing, because it correctly indicates that those people didn’t care about the creation and growth of the social conditions that caused that genocide in the first place.
Gaza didn’t turn into a killing field and prison overnight. This has been designed for decades by Israel. We are all culpable fools for allowing it to ever deteriorate to this point
That’s true. And personally I feel really bad that I was only aware of the history of this conflict very recently, too. But it’s good that people are changing their minds and opening their eyes. We shouldn’t shame them, but pat them on the backs for coming around. Keep in mind that the US especially has been inundated with a crazy amount of propaganda surrounding Israel for a long time. Lots of these latecomers are victims, not willingly ignorant. People have spent millions of dollars lobbying to keep it that way. (Not just Jewish people, it’s not some conspiratorial Jewish cabal before the wrong type of poeple jump on agreeing with my comment lol. The military industrial complex is involved and lots of other actors interested in Middle Eastern affairs and Christian zealotry.)
Agreed, and certainly anyone who has come around and had their eyes opened to what Zionism is should be praised for doing so.
But I don’t see anything wrong with stigmatizing a prior failure to discern the truth. While it is true that immense propaganda has facilitated the brainwashing of Americans for decades, it is still our responsibility as human beings, and as voters, to always seek truth. Failure to accurately do so is a failing and should be viewed as such
Fascist Joe what?
Please explain in clear terms what actions on the part of Joe Biden are consistent with any definition of the term fascism. Please provide the definition you are using for reference.
If you cannot substantiate your blatantly ignorant statement, please shut the hell up.
He acts as fascist by defining himself as a democrat when at the same time he ignores the popular will and continues to fund a genocide
It is the way contemporary fascism operates, publicly defining itself as one thing while at the same time acting contrary to the ideals they supposedly represent.
Research the etymological root of the word fascist and you will understand.
Research the etymological root of the word fascist and you will understand.
No. You provide the definition that you’re using. I won’t go on a wild goose chase to try to find a basis for your argument. You provide a basis for your argument.
he ignores the popular will and continues to fund a genocide
You realize that the US is bound by several preexisting agreements with Israel right? And that those agreements can’t just be dropped due to the changing wind of public opinion?
Honoring your defense and economic agreements is in no way “fascist”.
Honoring your defense and economic agreements is in no way “fascist”.
Which agreement requires Biden to sell arms for genocide? Which one requires us to run interference at the UN?
Was Hungary part of the Axis in WW2? Yes? Then the US absolutely can and should be blamed for supporting a genocidal government in Israel, just as Hungary was blamed for siding with Nazis when their only interest was keeping their borders.
Did you reply to the right comment?
Honoring your defense and economic agreements is in no way “fascist”.
Goalpost go vroom
An annoying side effect of the rise of Republican fascism has been some leftist critics labeling everything they don’t like as fascist, even when it makes absolutely no sense.
To be clear, this is like a pet peeve level of annoying compared to all the other shit going on. It’s not in my top 10 things to be concerned about, but damn if it isn’t annoying.
It’s been almost six months, you could’ve said something before now.
You didn’t watch the State of the Union speech, huh?
I’ve found the whole ‘genocide joe’ crowd very rarely listens to anything joe actually says and live off a drip feed of .ml misinfo posts
People can say whatever they want, but it’s actions that matter. And his actions have generally been supportive of Israel, including going around Congress to give them aid and weapons and vetoing UN resolutions for ceasefires.
No, instead we watched his actions. Such as banning aid for the UNRWA, blocking Un resolutions against Israel, sidestepping congress to ship them weapons, ensuring billions in funding go their way.
But wow he was totally mean to them in a speech, i guess thats what matters.
UN Security Council passes resolution calling for Gaza ceasefire 2 days ago By Raffi Berg,BBC News Watch: Moment UN passes Gaza ceasefire resolution
The UN Security Council has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, after the US did not veto the measure in a shift from its previous position. It also demanded the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages. It is the first time the council has called for a ceasefire since the war began in October after several failed attempts. The move by the US signals growing divergence between it and its ally Israel over Israel’s offensive in Gaza.
Seems like action to me. Yeah a lot more needs to be done, but his words and actions are meeting.
I’m not sure if calling “the US chose to finally stop vetoing UN resolutions” as action. They didn’t vote in the affirmative. By the time the current administration does something to actually change things like refusing to send weapons, there won’t be any more Palestinians left who haven’t forever lost their family, home, or life.
Fuck Joe Biden.
Trump and Putin both thank you for your service.
Israel thanks you for yours.
Keep living up to that username.
Because Israel just loves Biden — is that right?
And Biden doesn’t love Israel?
Go peddle your swill to the shrinking faithful, liberal - and buy some cope in bulk while you’re at it. You’re going to need it.
Trump and Putin thank Biden for being such a dumbass that he’s burning voters he’s depending on to win elections.
Is this even remotely supported by polling data?
The answer is no, it really is not
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There are 172,000 Palestinian Americans.
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There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
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And progressives who, being the most informed part of the electorate, know damn well if Trump gets in then it’s orders-of-magnitude worse for the Palestinians.
… But hey, just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats’ chances then…?
Your counter argument is “Well the shitty decision is more popular so.”?
There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
Then shame them for being shitty people. Don’t shame progressives and leftists for refusing to cater to it. Your accusation that refusing to vote for Biden is support for Putin and Trump is equally damning whether Biden continues to send weapons to Israel or not. Those who would refuse to support Biden if he stopped sending weapons to Israel are just as guilty. The difference is they want to keep bombing people.
Direct your shame and finger wagging to the people who actually deserve it.
Your counter argument is “Well the shitty decision is more popular so.”? My counter-argument is actually: The shitty decision is more popular, and it prevents the even-shittier decision from playing out next year, should the other guy win.
The good news is that Biden has clearly pivoted in recent months, going from being lockstep with Netanyahu to calling out the indiscriminate bombing and having a public tussle with them now. In fact they’ve moved more on this issue than I expected, abstaining from their veto-power and outright calling Israel’s actions indiscriminate.
But it’s a curious thing, your dodging my question: Just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats’ chances then…?
Then shame them for being shitty people. Don’t shame progressives and leftists for refusing to cater to it. Your accusation that refusing to vote for Biden is support for Putin and Trump is equally damning whether Biden continues to send weapons to Israel or not. Those who would refuse to support Biden if he stopped sending weapons to Israel are just as guilty. The difference is they want to keep bombing people.
I’m all for trying to convince them, which is clearly what the Biden administration is softly trying to do. Too hard, and you know enough from internet arguments how people double-down blindly to safe face. That doesn’t change the fact of the current polling.
So here’s a thought: it goes both ways — Why don’t YOU shame them for being shitty people instead of expecting Biden to do anything differently until those people actually SHIFT their positions? I mean isn’t it extremely ironic you say this as you finger-wag at Biden doing Democratic things in a Democracy?
So here’s a thought: it goes both ways — Why don’t YOU shame them for being shitty people instead of expecting Biden to do anything differently until those people actually SHIFT their positions? I mean isn’t it extremely ironic you say this as you finger-wag at Biden doing Democratic things in a Democracy?
But it doesn’t go both ways.
Progressives and leftists are simultaneously “the minority” in every single policy disagreement. There is not a single example of Biden making material compromises with progressives and leftists in his entire term because the threat is always “the polls don’t say that’s the way to go”.
So then after 4 years of being pushed aside Every. Single. Time. if Biden loses who will be blamed? Moderates? Liberals? War mongers? Nope. Those darn progressives and leftists.
Despite having zero material influence on policy we are handed 100% responsibility for every failure. It’s fucking bullshit.
Dude Biden and AOC both disagree with you. He clearly has compromised with progressives and been more progressive than probably any president in 40 years.
Literally every single social and economic progressive act had come through Democrats. It may not he as fast as you want but at least it happened unlike wishful thinking.
Biden wasn’t even my 3rd choice and I hear your frustrations on wishing more could be done, but it’s just not feasible until we actually change the rules of the game and kick the GOP to the curb for good.
You argued to me to stop finger-wagging at progressives and focus on the problem. All I’m saying is to do the same. Stop finger-wagging at Biden and influence the polls. Influence the Jewish Americans and I promise you the second you shift their stance you’ll see a reflection in the a Biden Administration’s approach.
Because his team of advisors and strategists with more experience and insider polling data than you or me are doing exactly this.
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Everybody Sucks Here.
No, I don’t need to write a 100 page comment about how some suck harder then others.
Switching away from first past the post voting makes third parties viable and eliminates the spoiler effect. Just search for videos on FPTP voting if you want an explanation on how and why first past the post voting makes third parties not viable.
Electoral reform is possible in each individual state (for now), we dont need federal reform! Maine and Alaska have already passed electoral reform.
So what’s the hold up with the rest of the states? Consider starring a campaign to chanfe how we vote in your own state! Force our representatives to compete with fresh outside ideas. We deserve the best representation, not excuses.
The UN passed the resolution calling it genocide so I agree with that, I trust a democratic vote of the UN despite their inability to actually do anything compared to South Africa. I’m still going to vote Biden though because I know about project 2025 and know that we will probably get genocided in our own country if he loses. It sucks but that’s how I feel.
If the only thing Biden ever does is keep Trump from office it will be a net win.
The IRA and the CHIPS Act were pretty legit - granted, I think trump might’ve passed some version of the CHIPS act as well. Seems like a no-brainer, imo, but the one that did it gets the credit!
What do you mean by IRA like I know Biden is of Irish descent and I would whole heartedly support an American backed IRA but I doubt thats what happened.
It’s the “Inflation Reduction Act”
AKA The Build Back Better bill minus everything progressives and leftists fought for.
Huge win if you’re a moderate or a liberal. Yet another slap in the face if you’re slightly left of either.
The Inflation Reduction Act- link to one page summary
The IRA even addresses the corporate tax loopholes in a clever way. There’s a minimum tax that they still have to pay even if their normal tax burden comes out to $0. I think it’s like 15%.
I’m not sure the ends justify the means.
? There are no “means”. all you can do is vote, and then something is going to happen depending on who wins. It’s not “do bad thing to get good result”, it’s “do neutral thing to get less bad result” or “do nothing to get shite result”.
Is voting not a means to elect Joe Biden to prevent Trump?
I don’t think the Palestinians suffering a genocide will see the “means” of voting for Biden as #neutral. This is the disconnect, many of us are selfishly more concerned about our menial lives than we are for people across the world; when the reality is we are no more important than they are. Either we’re all humans, or none of us are.
Palestinians are going dislike Trump a whole lot more.
Possible genocide in the USA should one of the two viable presidential candidates gets elected?
Will the democrats stop pursuing gun control considering this imminent threat of genocide?
What’s project 2025?
Yet another reason the working class must NEVER disarm.
Yeah. Although I doubt Americans will ever have the balls to actually properly revolt. By the time it would get bad enough for them to actually consider taking up arms seriously there will be robot dog armies and it will be moot.
I hope I’m wrong though.
A fascist purging of government the Republicans have planned if Trump wins.
a boogeyman
I just perused the Wikipedia page, doesn’t seem like a boogeyman to me. Considering it’s backed by the Heritage Foundation. It seems horrifying to be honest.
Don’t worry. I’m sure they don’t really mean to install Trump as the president for life, make LGBTQ+ illegal, instill Christianty as the state religion, deploy the military for law enforcement, etc, etc. Hitler didn’t REALLY mean he was gonna kill millions of people!
I don’t think they can pull it off. it’s a ghost story.
Let me guess- if you are American you stopped hanging out with your right-wing neighbors/family? Because for some insane reason, I didn’t. This is 100% what they actually believe. They really think that anything left of Trump is part of the deep state conspiracy, homeschool their kids, think that bringing back “god” in school/state will fix everything, that Trump will save the country, etc, etc. Some of them already know about project 2025 and have greeted it with thunderous applause, the rest of the right will too.
If you are not American, fuck off. You have no idea how bad the right-wingers really have becomeyou don’t know anything about me
this whole comment is attacking me personally rather than refuting anything I said
Its not, but plenty of Lemmy accounts are running around with a vested interest of convincing one and all that Biden and Dump are the exact same candidate and not voting is the answer. Its why theyll spam anything and everything about the Gaza genocide to the front page while not so sneakily inserting comments like this or, “gEnOciDe JoE” in the middle of it all.
>not voting is the answer
no one said that
>Lemmy accounts are running around with a vested interest of convincing one and all that Biden and Dump are the exact same candidate
if this were true you could show one.
^^^
Ill add return2ozma, linkerbaan, and tokenboomer off the top of my head. Each karmawhoring to keep themselves visible.
none of them have said that
>Each karmawhoring to keep themselves visible.
i don’t think you understand how lemmy’s vote system works.
Well, you, for a start.
I have never said that
Go astroturf in hell
demanding evidence is not astroturfing.
Or maybe people have a legitimate moral concern when their country is aiding and abetting an ongoing genocide?
It’s hard to get Americans to care about the death and destruction that occurs at the behest of the American Empire. People like the commenter above see the people of Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, and so on as subhuman cannon fodder. Why should they care about the genocide of those they don’t even see as human. In their eyes, all brown Muslim people and the spectrum of humanity that resides in these countries ravished by our foreign policy, are just simply terrorists. And when younger generations watch these horrors unfold in real time on social media, and advocate for human rights, the knee-jerk reaction of Congress is to ban a social media platform rather than to have any meaningful impact on the situation, as their MIC/corporate/AIPAC donors have dictated.
Two things can be happening. People with a legitimate moral concern, such as myself, don’t actively act against that concern by helping elect a candidate who would make that concern even worse. There are ways to express our anger and sorrow about Biden’s handling of this without supporting Trump.
Biden is going to lose if he continues his genocidal policy in Gaza.
People like me put pressure on the Biden admin to change course. By engaging in good faith criticism, I am trying to get Biden elected.
People who refuse to criticize Biden enable him to continue on this losing path. Enabling the worst of the Biden administration’s policies is helping to elect Trump.
Ahh, gotcha. Guess we really gotta push for Status Quo Joe harder then unless we want “stepping stone for the de-nazification of Europe” Ukraine to be genocided even harder than they currently are. Or, lemme guess, the russian talking point i see the shills parroting is, “ackshwallee, Ukraine has some guns/ammo so that mustn’t be a genocide,” right?
I prefer genocide Joe. Or Beholden-to-Israeli-corporate-interests Robinet Biden.
(Spoiler)
If that means they take (in)action that lets Donnie win a second term, they don’t
this is incoherent. i think it has snark poisoning.
Orange man is so bad that you’ll actively support a genocide, very enlightened, great job.
they couldn’t keep bush 1 in office, no one takes their economic freedom index seriously, they didn’t stop Obamacare… they’re a joke.
Project 2025 is a conservative plan to immediately reshape the executive branch and replace most people with Trump loyalists immediately if he wins. It includes dismantling the FBI and Department of Homeland Security, because while Republicans like to claim to be tough on crime, they really don’t like an independently functioning Justice Department that has showm their leader to be a criminal.
Right, the moment he tries to dismantle any government organization they get JFK’d
You incorrectly assume the rich fucks care. They’d just reform into an underground group no longer bound to any pesky laws stopping them from killing whoever they want at any time.
They’re not already?
Remember this is essentially what the dictator of China did to seize power in the 2000s. Ascend the ranks and replace people who didn’t agree with him.
A maga movement to seize power and turn the US into a theocratic dictatorship.
The same fearmongering we heard in 2016 and 2020. You must save Democracy for the 12th year in a row by voting Democrat!!
After Trump dies some other Republican will take over that says crazier shit and then you must keep saving Demoracy by always voting Democrat. Never vote third party.
The line is wearing thin, since democracy keeps being in greater peril even when we elect Democratic majorities.
Democrats would rather protect the filibuster than democracy.
Democrats would rather lose the election to a fascist than stop aiding a genocide.
Certainly there will be no blowback for allowing a genocide to occur to prevent fascism.
Should republicans win, do you think the thing you are talking about will get better or worse?
When they’re both doing genocide, does it matter?
It does when one wants to do more genocide, and make it local.
Pointing out that Biden will lose if he continues supporting genocide is not supporting Trump.
That is correct. However, their comment implies that there are people not voting for biden due to his participation, and my question still stands.
Those people not voting for biden because of his stance merely ensure that the thing they dont want to happen will happen on a much larger scale - abroad and at home.
Everything is getting worse regardless.
Let’s get it over with.
We aren’t Russia (for now). We can still effect change at the state level by getting rid of First Past The Post voting and passing comprehensive electoral reform.
Well historically I’ve voted independent. I’m Canadian, but we have similar party issues.
Honestly seeing shit like this though, if it really is just fearmongering, it’s fucking working. This shit looks horrifying to me, I’d probably end up voting for Biden just to not let trump in. And I fucking hate Biden.
Canadian
Oh boy. How about the recent fumble of electoral reform by the Liberal party in Canada eh?
“Oopsie poopsie, now you HAVE TO vote for us or yous gets the conservatives again! LOL!”
Trump already won in 2016 and the world didn’t end back then. It’s not going to be better than Biden but it sure as hell isn’t going to be as bad as people here make it out to be.
I hope you’re right. It went about how I thought it would go last time. That insurrection thing threw me though. And all the court cases coming after trump, as well as that project 2025 thing, this time seems different to me.
If the Dems were serious about prosecuting him he wouldn’t get bailed out at the last second every time.
Also Dems purposely delayed the inserruction case now the verdict won’t be until after the election. Real convenient now nothing can stop Trump except voting for Biden.
If that’s actually their game plan, then that’s the most idiotic game plan I’ve ever seen and it is definitely going to put trump back in the White House.
They can’t seriously be that stupid though. Can they?
I think it could be possible that this is the game plan they’re going with because it’s lazy and won’t piss off any donors, which doing things actual leftists want would definitely do.
I have been really annoyed with the protest vote arguments because our system is horseshit and we still have to play within it, but there is no disagreeing with this. I’ll be voting a lot of these useless assholes back in this time as a last-ditch effort, but a purge of the bad actors is long in order. I lost faith in our institutions with Trump in charge, but when it’s come down to punishing that hunk of offal, nothing the dems have done has brought that faith back.
To be honest though, even if things in that situation were going better, I’d still be unconvinced. Outside said institutions, I truly believe that we are not participating in a society, we haven’t been for decades, and that’s got nothing to do with the government.
It almost did. There was a mob of people just a couple doors away from murdering most of congress and making Trump a dictator.
The only reason Trump failed to end democracy is because he and the rest of the Republican party were just trying things without a real plan.
They have a plan now. If they get a chance to use it, they will be successful.
The Democrats sure waited a long time to prosececute Trump with that. Now the result of that trial will be after the election. Thank Democrats for saving Trump from jail.
What’re you talking about? Democrats were sharply criticizing Garland for not bringing charges sooner, and still are. The Justice Department is independent, not an arm of the presidency.
And, it took Garland time to bring a case because you can’t put together a case against the previous president of the US in a day. You only have one shot at a prosecution like that, and it needs to be flawless. It’s like the phrase “when you swing at the King, you better not miss”. It takes time to build the necessary case.
Blame the supreme court instead for being lazy and in Trump’s pocket.
The American fascist party was born prematurely. They’ve spent the last eight years incubating within the Republican party and are ready to go mask-off now.
Bush was way worse than Trump.
Aside from saying some real dumb shit Trumps presidency was a lot milder than expected.
Trump’s influence on the Supreme Court has been utterly disastrous for the US and leftist causes
I would agree with you, except for COVID. That shit was nuts. Trump would have easily won re-election if he just let scientists make decisions.
Edit: Thinking about it more, you’re right. War and occupation directly and indirectly claimed the lives of about a half-million Iraqis from 2003 to 2011
What a charmed life you must lead. I wasn’t really affected by his policies either but have you noticed the way things have been turning for the people his goons have been targeting since the chuds became empowered?
It is imperative that we bury the GOP first. Then, we absolutely can and should go knives out on Team Blue™️. I don’t disagree that Biden needs to go, and that most of the Democrats are obstacles at best to truly repairing our long-dead society. Hell, don’t just vote, actually fucking run for office, start somewhere where you aren’t so completely outgunned by the moneyed interests but you also actually make a difference. But for now, we need to take down the more immediate threat.
Throw rocks at me for saying it, but the Dems’ fecklessness is our fault too, to an extent. The problem is complacency when the pendulum appears to have swung in our direction, like “yeah we got the job done!* Let’s have pizza and congratulate ourselves and go back home!” Fortunately, it may finally no longer be the case. But for christ’s sake, can we not throw the baby out with the bathwater? The upcoming, inevitable fight will be less harrowing if we can keep from actively making the battlefield more hazardous, which absolutely will happen with a Trump win.
*christ, I remember when Obama was elected and there was a false prospect of healthcare reform, Newsweek published a rather insulting cover saying, “we are all socialists now”, simultaneously feeding the right’s paranoia and patronizing the left in such an insulting way
You’re not going to bury the GOP by voting Democrat. You will just worsen the situation.
Biden is continuing to build the wall, jailed twice as many immigrants as Trump, is committing Genocide, and so much more. Biden is just a GOP candidate with D in front of his name. He is one of the biggest establishment democrats who has built his career on empowering the elites.
Fine. Trump ‘24 then. Whatever, he’ll fix it.
But throughout it all, life went on. The people of Germany lived in and often simply accepted the new normal that came with the rise of fascism –- a state of normalcy that, if the war had ended differently, could have become normal, everyday life for much of the rest of Europe as well. source
Pass electoral reform in your state first, then you can vote third party with zero chance of a spoiler effect.
Check out a video on First Past the Post voting if you’d like to learn more.
I’m still going to vote Biden though because I know about project 2025 and know that we will probably get genocided in our own country if he loses. It sucks but that’s how I feel.
Instead of picking between a genocide and another you should just vote for someone else and don’t support any criminal.
Stein says that Russia had no other choice but to invade Ukraine and commit genocide there, and Cornel West has a similar position I believe.
If you don’t want to vote for a genocide apologist, you basically can’t vote.
>Stein says that Russia had no other choice but to invade Ukraine and commit genocide there, and Cornel West has a similar position I believe.
neither of them said this. your comment is straight misinformation.
https://twitter.com/DrJillStein/status/1629226431006875651?lang=en
“So yes, Russia illegally invaded Ukraine – but did so with a gun to its head, or in this case, nuclear-compatible missiles. Compared to the US mobilization for immediate nuclear war when roles were reversed w Russian nukes in Cuba, this response was relatively moderate.”
She’s went with the old “but NATO would be right there!” argument, which is pro imperialist apologia.
EDIT: I forgot Dr. West.
https://www.newsnationnow.com/politics/2024-election/biden-war-criminal-cornel-west/
“When it comes to Ukraine, we must grasp the implications of NATO expansion and its potential to escalate into a catastrophic conflict,” West stated. He called for an end to the war in Ukraine and urged diplomatic negotiations to ensure both Russian security and Ukrainian freedom.”
Once again, a pro imperialist argument that Ukraine isn’t allowed to do what it wants because it would piss off it’s former colonizer. And a pro imperialist argument that we know better than Ukraine and they should stop fighting because we said so, even though they want to keep fighting.
being antinato is being anti-imperialist.
calling for an end of the war is not pro-russian. you are providing evidence against your own position and then lying about what the evidence says.
It certainly is if Ukraine wants to continue fighting to reclaim their own land.
Let Ukraine decide, and support them in whatever their decision is.
i’m an anarchist, and i don’t believe states should exist at all. there are people living in the region called ukraine. i want them to live without any government, russian or ukranian.
i love that you shared that thread. anyone can see she opposes war and genocide just by reading your link.
Yes because surrendering to genocidal maniacs is the “anti war” position.
And in this case, being anti NATO is being pro imperialist. Russia is angry that a former colony is going against them. NATO is supporting the colony against their former colonizers. Suggesting that the colonists stop fighting and do whatever the colonizers want is pro imperialism, and it’s what Stein and West are supporting.
No support for Israel. No support for Russia. No support for colonizers. Any “leftist” against Palestinian and Ukrainian aid is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
>Suggesting that the colonists stop fighting and do whatever the colonizers want
no one said that
she called the invasion illegal, and the only extent to which your comment is correct, cornel west agrees with **that**.
I’ve responded to your other comment.
Damn, that’s like a solid step above a “Huh” with an inquisitively arched eyebrow.
His finger is dangerously close to wagging.
Like Mutumbo?
I don’t know if he’d go THAT far.
😂
“They have a point,” Biden said after the protesters were escorted out. “We need to get a lot more care into Gaza.”
They wouldn’t need it as badly if someone didn’t go around Congress to ban funding to UNRWA…
Still, the Biden administration decided to pause funding, and other big donors did the same. The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, says she understands that UNRWA is the only international organization with the capacity to help deliver food, flour and fuel to Palestinians in Gaza, but she says donors want to see a full investigation of the Israeli allegations.
And even after we found out the allegations were bullshit and confessions were after torture, both parties (except a few progressives) united to ban it till 2025.
Biden is literally responsible for this, but is acting like it’s just some random thing and maybe he’ll help out.
They wouldn’t need it as badly if someone didn’t go around Congress to ban funding to UNRWA…
Or if someone hadn’t sold Netanyahu weapons in the first place. Or if someone didn’t run interference for Netanyahu at the UN.
but she says donors want to see a full investigation of the Israeli allegations.
both parties (except a few progressives) united to ban it till 2025.
How is Biden literally responsible for everyone uniting on that point?
He went around Congress to give billions to Israel, and to ban aid to UNRWA causing mass starvation
Then Congress included both in the budget.
Any other questions?
Any comment on the fact that donors paying for aid to UNRWA wanted this, or that it was bipartisan and - as you just pointed out - it was Congress that put it in the budget?
Why is everything all Biden’s fault, when you have already said in multiple points that other people were pushing for it also?
Israel controls both sides of American politics. What’s your point?
Why is everything all Biden’s fault
Because before it was included in the budget, Biden went around Congress to do both via executive order.
And I think the other bit is you’re confused about what “donors” meant, like are you thinking it’s private citizens donating money and the government now won’t let them?
I’m not trying to be insulting, but from context that seems to be your impression
Why is everything all Biden’s fault
Because he’s the boss. The president is always considered the leader of their party while they’re in office. That’s why Truman said, “The buck stops here.”
If an organization does something, the leader of that organization needs to accept responsibility or admit they’re an ineffective leader.
He’s the leader of the party, but this had bipartisan support.
I’m not saying he’s not responsible, just that they all are. Also he has to be careful with it being election year and being up against Trump.
If you have the power to unilaterally hinder a genocide and instead you use that power to enable it, you are culpable.
He’s definitely culpable, but he’s far from the only one.
Sure, just the one with the most ability to act on his own. His culpability is proportional to that. He’s used that ability previously to aid Israel, he could use that same power to hinder them, but chooses not to.
the one with the most ability to act on his own
Maybe 3 years ago he would’ve been, but right now, with an election coming up against Trump and his Maggats, he’s in a very precarious position.
You’re not entirely wrong, but Biden has bipartisan backing on this as it’s part of the whole funding bill, which makes most of the repesentatives and senators complicit with Biden which this bill also gives Israel $3B, and Ukraine $0.3B.
Still, like how a massive frigate turns slowly, the actions of the State Department are showing a change of tune, and the US is nearly fed up with covering for Israel’s genocide. The first steps are to abstain from ceasefire resolutions and then to give the protestors attention and credibility. There are many more steps to go.
nearly fed up with covering for Israel’s genocide
The US is doing far more than covering for it, we are enabling it via massive funding and contributing the very bombs being used to decimate Gaza and murder 10s of thousands of civilians. Biden’s willingness to let Bibi order us around and use us as cover is absolutely pathetic - Biden, and by proxy the US, are completely captured by the far-right extremist government of a foreign nation state. This is the weakest posturing imaginable for a world leader, and it’s entirely because Biden is a genocidal Zionist freak.
“Bipartisan backing” in DC means one thing only - Congress is getting paid. It’s gross that AIPAC can buy air cover for a genocide so easily, but such is the extent of corruption in the US.
We are 6 months into this ethnic cleansing, and these baby steps are not nearly enough at this juncture. For fuck’s sake even Trump beat Biden to the natural conclusion of demanding Israel put a stop to this. The bar is so low it’s literally on the ground and Biden just faceplants in front of it. Pathetic.
“I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”
Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from the Birmingham Jail
I’d really like to believe that but the cynic in me expects that as soon as Israel gets done with their genocide campaign they’ll pretend that they’ve turned a new leaf and all funding and military assistance will resume as though nothing had happened. There will be no lasting consequences for Israel’s actions so they will, correctly, assume that there is nothing to stop them from doing it again.
There will be no lasting consequences for Israel’s actions so they will, correctly, assume that there is nothing to stop them from doing it again.
Not concrete political action no, but make no mistake Israel has lost a lot of international support in this war, and support for them is now more concentrated among older people. I’ll be cautiously hopeful that we’ll see real change from the West in the next 20 or so years as the older generations die off and more people grow up hearing about Israel committing their second genocide.
bill also gives Israel $3B, and Ukraine $0.3B.
You forgot banning aid to UNRWA…
the US is nearly fed up with covering for Israel’s genocide.
Voters are, and have been.
But can you name a Dem in a party leadership position that doesn’t take AIPAC money?
There are many more steps to go.
That’s what they told FDR 80 years ago when he was trying to get universal healthcare past a Dem controlled Congress…
There’s so many steps left to go, it’s functionally infinite. Because Republicans take more steps back then Dems take forward.
Biden spent a billion dollars in 2020 to just barely convince voters he was better than trump. I don’t know you, but if you had a billion dollar campaign, I bet you could have wiped the floor with trump.
Wait are we electing @rentlar as the Lemmy candidate? I dunno if they’re eligible.
When the only other two options can’t crack 33% approval, a random unknown person is kind of a shoe in…
I’d bet money no foreign government has donated to their campaign at least.
Republicans are always gonna disrupt any real action anyway, they are full mask-off on the Christian nationalism thing and believe they must support Isreal 100% no matter what to make jesus come back.
No fucking shit decent human beings have a point, that could easily be taken as dismissal.
Please act, and end Israel’s reign of horror.
you have a point now shut up
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Two protesters were escorted out of the Raleigh, North Carolina, venue after they cut off the president mid-remarks, shouting, “What about the health care in Gaza?”
Biden has faced numerous anti-war protests during his events in the months since the Israel-Hamas war began Oct. 7, and especially as calls have grown for his administration to take stronger action on the civilian death toll in Gaza.
In the weeks after he was interrupted about a dozen times during a January abortion rights speech, his team worked to minimize disruptions by making Biden’s events smaller and withholding their precise locations longer than usual.
During his State of the Union address this month, Biden announced that he was directing the U.S. military to establish a “temporary pier in the Mediterranean on the Gaza coast” for aid delivery.
At the same time, Biden and top allies have ramped up criticism of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his government’s approach to the war.
Biden, who served as vice president when the ACA was passed by Congress, has made preserving access to health care a central part of his re-election bid.
The original article contains 509 words, the summary contains 186 words. Saved 63%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
He realized that supporting Israel will doom the Democrats in the elections.
Not yet. If he had then he would stop arming them.
Fuck Israel.
Fuck all those willing to commit atrocities in the name of land or religion.
And especially Netanyahu and gang who do it for monetary profits.
Dark Brandon, come forth and high five one of them.
Biden from today is sure saying something different:
U.S. Finds Israel in Compliance With Biden’s Demands on International Law, Humanitarian Aid
‘We have not found them to be in violation, either when it comes to the conduct of the war or the provision of humanitarian assistance,’ the State Department said
posts something the Biden did not say
That’s Bidens demands
I am really disappointed with the discourse concerning Biden’s handling of the most recent Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Everyone is acting like Biden invented our alliance with Israel and is somehow personally responsible for our support of Israel. Geopolitical alliances are complicated matters that touch everything from international reputation to national security. They are fostered over decades. We have obligations to Israel that precede Biden and the recent conflict.
I understand the moral positions people are taking, and I agree that a genocide is taking place. But with anything geopolitical, these issues must be approached without hard lines and moral absolutism, because those ideals are what both sides are using to justify the atrocities we are witnessing. They both feel morally justified, and that the other side has crossed some hard lines. That is how diplomacy breaks down.
Those of you that want to see an end to the conflict need to understand that the official US position at this moment is aligned with you. But so many of you are proposing “simple” solutions that will not achieve that outcome. If we end support for Israel, they will not stop the genocide. What we will lose is leverage in negotiating peace and we will weaken the alliance with Israel, and the genocide will continue unhindered by US calls for restraint. You may argue that Israel relies on this alliance for security, and that is true, but you assume that other super powers would not jump at the chance to replace the US as a close ally to a nuclear power in the middle east.
Let’s not forget how rash reactionary approaches to geopolitics threatened the NATO alliance during the Trump presidency. Our allies are already doubting if the US will honor the treaty, and this doubt extends to Taiwan, too. Weakening these alliances gives power to our enemies, full stop. Do you want to see war break out in the Pacific? Russia to expand its empire eastward? The Israel-Palestine conflict to extend to other Arab nations? Damaging these alliances will cause more war, not less.
Outrage against Israel is justified. But look past your nose before you jeopardize our key alliances. Diplomacy is slow and frustrating, but it is better than more war.
Biden didn’t invent the alliance to Israel, but when the conflict increased during his term he side-stepped congress to give weapons to them faster, so they can kill more civilians as quick as possible.
Don’t excuse for what he has done. Biden is a war criminal. And having NATO, most powerful minitarly alliance in the World, threatened is no comparison to genocide in Gaza. NATO is a problem just as well, but Israel needs to be stopped ASAP.
Slaughter all genocidists and eat the rich
But look past your nose before you jeopardize our key alliances. Diplomacy is slow and frustrating, but it is better than more war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war
There’s a genocide happening right now with USA support where thousand of childrens have already been murdered. Israel is bombing neighbor countries and the whole middle east is boiling as a result. They are not seeking diplomacy they are seeking war.
So we should abandon diplomacy precisely when it is needed most? When we withdraw our support and Iran and Egypt join the conflict, will it be easier to stomach the killing of even more children in more nations? After we cede our influence in the middle east and China expands its influence to fill the vacuum, we will be able to honor our treaty with Taiwan after an emboldened China begins bombing and killing their children?
This is the macabre calculus of geopolitics. This is the risk of reactionary policy. All of this is a hypothetical worse case scenario, but one thing is certain: if we withdraw our support, Israel will lose any incentive to stop the killing. More will die. And that would be the best case scenario.
Right and next Satan is going to tap dance on your kitchen counter.
if we withdraw our support, Israel will lose any incentive to stop the killing. More will die. And that would be the best case scenario.
So if Zionist government officials don’t steal taxpayer money in order to fund their Zionist invasion of the Middle East, Israel will kill more people. So Israel must be supported in order to kill less people. Nice logic.
A cornered rat can only do so much before it gets exhausted. It’s better to corner a rat and have it rage rather than pouring in all its cousins to make it feel safer in order to pacify it.
You’re arguing like a Zionist, because your “diplomacy” perfectly aligns with their goals. And one of their goals is genociding the Palestinians.
diplomacy
To send israel government “whatever it needs” and additional aid is the opposite of diplomacy. The really reason they are getting away with a genocide is because they have the west backing.
There’s a genocide happening right now under your nose where thousand of kids are getting killed, this is already the worst case scenario. They are doing exactly what they want to do, they are not seeking diplomacy they want war.
Imagine being so psychotic that you pretend 10/7 didn’t happen.
Why do you think it happened?
I think…this is more complicated than a clear cut black and white choice. Not killing is clearly the correct response. Thing is how do we get there? Do we attempt to send in troops to police a location half a planet away? You know people will support that while also pointing out other conflicts we should be “dealing with” and pointing casually to situations we’ve made usually worse by stepping into.
That’s not really the point though. The point is the support being given.
I agree that the sales of arms to any institution inflicting harm on another is, at the absolute best, a grey area on a good day. It seems to me though that in a conflict that is powered by ideology, this legitimately makes no real difference. It will happen whether we break off the relationship or not. Because of this, it is best to attempt to utilize that relationship to attempt to diplomatically stop the conflict. The alternatives are send in forces which will increase regional political strain and possibly ignite a larger conflict, or do absolutely, irrefutably nothing.
If there is a fourth decision that leads to a better outcome I am not wise enough to see it. What I do understand is that all relationships require some give in order to have some take. I don’t agree with any weapons being sent over, though I do believe they made zero real impact on the result. This was going to happen and I feel attempting to stop it without escalation was the right choice, because it usually is the right choice.
Anyway, chances are the situation is far more complex than we realize. 50/50 on me being wrong, which is fine, opinions can change. Diplomacy should always take precedence over added conflict though.
Diplomacy should always take precedence over added conflict though.
Then we should start doing diplomacy and actually put pressure on Netanyahu to stop the genocide.
Until then we aren’t doing diplomacy we are appeasing a genocide of at this point probably ~50,000 Palestinians.
I’m probably more ignorant than I realize, though I am under the understanding that there has been increasing levels of pressure. Netanyahu just doesn’t care.
Its ok to be ignorant, but you have to understand we are talking about this like it is an unpaid loan or some material bullshit.
This is an entire people and their landscape being erased. Every moment of “increasing pressure” that doesn’t create material policy change is horrifically extending hell on earth.
When Israel kills all Palestinians the problem is diplomatically solved!
This would be funnier if it wasn’t unironically what some are advocating.
You just stated the point of OPs post. It’s not like when we sent arms to them since the 80s Biden was suddenly like “ok go kill babies”. We should definitely suspend future transactions until at least the end of the current government term though. This whole US is equally responsible is a bit much though.
I’m never leaving lemmy. I love the way it’s common to see normal sane views being widely accepted. I can breathe here.
I’m never leaving lemmy. I love the way it’s common to see normal sane views being widely accepted.
A lot of astroturfing bots though. :/
Oh?
It’s really refreshing. We do have our share of crazies, as my block list can attest, but for the most part people are willing to accept that sometimes situations can be really complicated.
What I really like about here is that nuance is understood and accepted. Very few people have a “bomb, baby, bomb!” approach. We largely agree that this violence is a tragic genocide and needs to stop. But we also understand the political reality in the US, and what our options are. And I think people have done a good job of successfully bringing Biden around on this.
What I really like about here is that nuance is understood and accepted.
Yeahhhh, about that, …
This is one of those ones that sounds rational but really isn’t.
Nobody said we have to leave Israel completely in the wind. They just want weapons deliveries to stop. Other countries aren’t worried about Democrats holding their alliances. They’re worried the Democrats are following the Republicans down the hole and supporting extreme religious parties. You show your allies you value them by listening to them, not by vetoing their anti starvation measures in the UN for several months.
Eh there’s plenty of people who want to completely abandon Israel, and I’m honestly sympathetic to their viewpoint. There’s definitely people who think any violence against Israeli civilians is justified, although they’re usually heavily downvoted.
I think the comment is perfectly rational when you consider these other comments.
Biden did not invent our alliance with israel, but he certainly has strongly supported it for decades and decades: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs
Calling the situation complicated and saying there is a lot of nuance has often been used as a cover for israel’s campaign of terrorism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and now full-speed mask-off genocide. The official US position amounts to nothing because it’s two-faced. Biden will claim he is doing what he can while he bypasses congress and otherwise sneaks weapons to israel to continue the genocide. You ask about theoretical wars while downplaying a genocide happening right now. Somehow you think caring about genocide is rash, but being paranoid about imaginary wars is rational. I don’t know what your intentions are, but your post sounds like a PR piece, urging us to stay calm and take things slow so that israel can complete its mission of genocide in peace.
If genocide isn’t a red line for sending military aid then our alliances are already useless. We are the country and the country is us; not some third entity. So a moral failure of this magnitude being forced on us “for the good of our country” just opens the door to more moral failures. And we’re the ones that will have to live in that system.
Furthermore, allies who do have moral standards are now looking at us wondering if our moral failures will extend to keeping our word when it’s not a country that’s entangled itself with our religious conservatives. They are very aware of why we support Israel. And very aware that they do not share Israel’s unique political position.
It’s that enough big picture stuff for you or would like to attempt to rationalize sending weapons to a genocidal regime some more?
Also a genocide is basically something where all kinds of crime are encompassed. Keeping an alliance despite genocide, maybe counterintuitively, makes one less trustworthy of an ally, because an alliance is an agreement, a contract to be held in good faith. There were obligations and agreements taken to not partake in such things, some even directly to the victims.
You managed to unironically demonstrate the point of the person you responded to.
