I have pointed out numerous times how this strategy is just a repeat of the same electoral strategy that radical liberals have been engaging in for the better part of 20 years.

This is clearly not a winning strategy. You’re not being pragmatic you’re being insane because you continue to do the same thing expecting a different result while watching our government inch closer to fascism.

Pragmatically voting for minimizing harm means voting in the most working class candidate possible because that’s what we should all do regardless of party and vote for the most Progressive policies to uplift Working Class People. Anything past that is generally a waste of time.

If there’s a candidate a particular group is interested in sure they could spend some of their time doing electoral politics but they have additional responsibilities they have to do which are far more important and then spreading the propaganda of whatever candidate they’re trying to get voted in.

Like I said before education is incredibly important to help build the working class party and an educated working class would vote for the working class candidate regardless of party.

To your point you don’t get to pick who the generals are either. Nor do you get to pick who your comrades are or what the proper strategies are. Sometimes we have to conform to reality which I would argue that you are not.

Oh I don’t think she’s a genocide supporter I know she’s Pro Palestinian. I just think this was unequivocally a loss for AOC.

I don’t agree with the people that smeared paint all over her office but I do understand why they are upset.

Okay so yeah you are objectively correct that she did vote down the overall bill that funds Israel in general but let’s not forget that she was condemned by Ilhan Omar and DSA for voting no on the MTG Amendment. It’s not just people throwing shade at her she is receiving legitimate criticism for not voting away more of Israel’s funding. The argument is quite simple As long as Israel commits a genocide they should receive no military funding period regardless of what they would use the assets for.

She is using the proper terminology calling this a genocide. She is heavily critical of Israel and she at least didn’t vote Yes on a funding bill in 2021.

So in general she tends to be pretty Pro Palestinian but I think in this particular case on the MTG Amendment this is a loss unequivocally for her and she made a mistake. And she’s deepening that mistake by doubling down.

That was a good play trying to tug on my heartstrings with the PLA except they’re not actually a good model to replicate in the Quest for liberation. Nice try though.

It would have been better for you to quote Lenin.

You still can’t let the sarcastic comment about a jacket go. Besides I would not waste my time buying a jacket I would make my own. I am a proud communist after all.

Being pragmatic about voting is not the same as investing time into electoralism. Being pragmatic about voting means voting in the working class candidate always regardless of their chance of winning. Or voting in a policy that will help uplift the working class. Thats it.

You should spend literally no more time than that on voting.

You should not waste your time trying to create policies or trying to push them through the parliamentarian process. It is a Fool’s errand and a waste of time. Attempting to push policy through that will benefit the working class against the capitalistic interest is basically just a waste of time, money, and energy. The capitalist literally built the system so that it would not work that way and it could not be used against them in that way. Something that Rosa Luxembourg addresses in her book reform or revolution.

If your local organization wants a certain person to win then yes they obviously should spend some time on electoralism. Probably about 10% of their time doing some sort of propaganda for their chosen candidate. The rest of the time they should be doing other much more useful things like collecting donations to feed the hungry in their community, or finding beds and shelters that are open for the homeless folk in their community, or educating the masses on communist Theory so that they gain class consciousness.

These are the things we should be focused on not getting people elected. Thus electoralism is not a major front at all and hardly worth considering when faced with the other monumental tasks that must be done in order to facilitate the rise of a working class party.

Yes they should vote for the most radical candidate that will bring the most benefit to workers regardless of the party.

You keep saying that electoralism is one of the most important fronts for the class war.

I’d be very happy to go pull it out of a screenshot for you.

I disagree. I think electoralism should be practiced only in so far as we can get something pragmatically out of it. This of course would mean advocating for people like Zohran Mamdani but also be willing to call him out for playing to corporate interests over those of the community. Frankly I’m super excited for him to get elected. It’s going to be a wonderful example of the ineffectiveness of electoralism to actually get anything done. And if I’m wrong that’s even better because the material conditions actively get better for people.

Currently I don’t think we’ll get anything out of the Democrats. I don’t think they’ll roll back any of the Trump changes and it would just be a pause before the next fascist Administration rolls in.

Liberals have no idea where to put in their time and effort when it comes to making changes politically and it shows throughout this entire thread. You know you should at least read the commie books since they have a ton of information on how to properly organize a community and how to utilize their local power including when to use electoralism.

I simply Advocate that people shouldn’t waste their time advocating for the Democrats or trying to convince people to vote. There are other places where our time is better utilized actually helping our community rather than wasting our breath on a political group that does not care about us and will not save us.

As far as your example it’s more like a group deciding they want to grow lemons in Colorado to feed the homeless and me doing my best to Advocate they don’t do that because it’s a literal waste of time.

Have you not seen that I have conceded the point that people should at least go vote?

Is that not what you want? Or do you want people to vote a very specific way and then if you do how much energy should people spend trying to accomplish that? And finally how would this attempt to be any different from any of the other attempts that we’ve done the last 20 plus years that were not effective

It’s not privilege it’s realism.

It’s not a privilege to know that no matter how I vote that It ultimately isn’t going to affect anything and that things have to be done locally through local organizations to help your community.

It is waste of any time on electoralism other than “go vote”

As are you evidentially.

Its funny thats what you chose to screencap because I am clearly being sarcastic.

As far as the rachet effect I see you as the reason the democrats won’t veer left since your ilk will always vote them in regardless of their position.

I will not vote between 99% hitler and 95% hitler. I am going to vote for “Not Hitler” and then encourage everyone to do the same and to not waste time trying to change a party that would offer “95% hitler” instead of a “Not Hitler”

Wow. You’re such an asshole. PhilipTheBucket is more then capable of checking my profile and seeing what I have been up too.

Can’t handle the smoke in the other thread so your going through my history to warn others from talking to me?

You’re the idiot that thinks electoralism is the be all end all and refuses to admit that its not the most important front or not a very important one. This is not just my opinion but is the opinion of most anarchist and marxists.

This is such pathetic loser behavior. I thought you were better than this but guess not.

I haven’t had much time to research this yet. I am interested in continuing our decision but got distracted by lively debate on how important electoralism is to fixing US politics.

Look you would have a point if it weren’t for the fact that they were five other Democrats that supported mtg and all of them are pro Palestinian.

Voting for stripping any money away is unequivocally a win when the country is responsible for a genocide.

It’s not infectious. I just really really really want my tax dollars to stop funding a genocide.

As far as her voting consistently on the Iron Dome funding I’ll go look into her voting record and report back because this is something I heard consistently. It’s one of the places where her and Bernie Sanders seem to be weak.

I don’t care what’s politically expedient. I don’t care what’s politically acceptable.

I care about my Representatives standing up for what’s morally acceptable.

Continuing to give any sort of funds to a state committing genocide is tangential support of that genocide.

I do not care that AOC has also voted down other Israel funding bills when she has been consistent on funding the Iron Dome.

I do not care about her preconceived notions about how this would leave “Israelis defenseless”. Israel is entirely surrounded by US military bases on all sides and is capable of manufacturing the Iron Dome missiles.

Israel would simply need to use the $9 million already allocated to them ( for their genocide) instead of the $500 million of United States taxpayer money so that they can continue to be the most belligerent Empire in the Middle East.

Edit:

As you pointed out this vote was never going to win and so was symbolic. This would have been an easy win with her constituents with how unpopular Israel currently is instead she is currently doubling down and accusing people of being fake leftists for criticizing her position.

Unfortunately she seems to have lost the plot

So she should have voted symbolically for it like the five Democrats who did?

I don’t care how much money it takes away from Israel they deserves no money while it’s committing a genocide.

Still not an answer to the question. One that you posed.

I see you’re dodging your own quotation.

A lot of people see all the genocide as 100% justified

Who cares how much support there is for a genocide? why even bring that up? I’m 100% sure you won’t answer this either.

Do you think all consequences of aggressors are justified?

I think imposing any consequences on the aggressors of a genocide would be a good start.

Would you mind reading the username there?

Wow. Eptiome of honor here. I bow to your “holy” presence.

Definitely not a cowardly intellectually dishonest sophist.

You’re such a coward.

Couldn’t answer the very simple question of how restricting funding to Israel is endorsing a genocide or justifying murder.

I was entirely right in my prediction of your response in my last comment. This is an excellent example of a red herring fallacy and a great way to try and avoid answering the above question.

A lot of people see all the genocide as 100% justified

This yours? 🙄

How does restricting Israel’s defense assets from the United States, which they are perfectly capable of manufacturing on their own, result in murdering people? Is the United States immediately going to strike Israel with missiles?

The only people claiming that giving Aid to Palestinians is funding terrorists are Israel in the United States everybody else pretty universally agrees they giving Aid the Palestinians is not funding “terrorist” groups. This is an especially stupid example given the fact that Bibi has admitted to funding Isis groups to disrupt Hamas activities as recently as last month.

a lot of people all see the genocide as 100% Justified.

Yeah so did the Germans in World War II. That’s a wonderful argument you’re making. 🤦

So I’m going to predict you’re not going to give me a straight answer because you and I both know what the answer actually is. But let’s try this again so that you can at least try to prove that you’re not just a fool who came in here without any fact to back up your opinion.

How does removing $500 million of United States tax dollars from the Israeli defense assets endorse genocide, and as a follow-up, justify murder?

Explain how the statement is pro genocide?

You understand that the Iron Dome is why Israel felt it had the impunity to strike Iran and continued to act belligerent in the region right?

Furthermore withholding all Munitions to a state facilitating genocide is the bare minimum. Regardless of the intended purpose any Munition can be turned offensive.

Finally even if Israel didn’t have the resupply for the Iron Dome and had to supply their own budget it would not guarantee a genocide against the Israeli people. Saying anything of the such is stupid and undermines the control of the United States has in that area with its massive aircraft carriers that carry the power of a small state with them.