Let’s break down this bullshit: A vote for Jill Stein is a vote for Jill Stein. The election clerks count ballots marked for Stein and report the vote totals that Stein received. A vote for Jill Stein is literally a vote for Jill Stein.
The statement that a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump is, of course, metaphorical. It’s asserting that a vote for Stein is morally equivalent to a vote for Trump by the speaker’s moral reckoning. It’s a rhetorical shortcut. This shortcut rests on the notion that either the voter would have voted for Harris, or that it is a moral imperative to stop Trump above all else.
That’s a moral judgement call. Other people may judge differently. Flatly stating that a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump so vehemently and absolutely elides any possibility of discourse and clearly tells the Stein voter that the speaker will not listen to or consider any of their views, or reasons to vote for Stein.
Fine, you believe that, but when has telling people more or less directly that you do not have any intention of considering their political beliefs won them over to your side? How is that a good tactic? If it worked, then why not employ it on Trump supporters? Go ahead, tell them that the party you support will ignore what they think and want, and demand they vote for your candidate.
If it doesn’t work on them, why should it work on Stein voters?
Fucking thank you for saying it.
(and for saying it more eloquently than I have been able to.)
Right?! I need to use parts of his post for the endless people yelling at me for voting third party. lol
Or you could optionally pull your head out of your ass and stop the campaign
Well said, not horse shit.
Axiomatic AF for your horsefly-ass to buzz in here calling this pile of excrement a delicious meal.
Maybe blame the disappointing candidate instead of voters hoping for a better life.
Not surprised to see your bullshit here.
Negativity is not the solution.
Great post!
More accurately, a vote for Stein is a vote for whichever major party candidate the voter wouldn’t have voted for. In most cases, someone voting for the Green Party would vote for Harris, so it’s a vote for Trump.
That isn’t a moral judgement, it’s the facts of a two party system. -1 vote for Harris = +1 vote for Trump, no other votes matter.
And that’s not telling someone you don’t consider their political beliefs. Considering their political beliefs, they should vote for the major party candidate that they agree with the most, or they will effectively be voting for the one they agree with least.
That’s not the approach with Trump supporters because Trump is the major party candidate they agree with most, by definition. If anything one should try to get Trump supporters to vote 3rd party, Libertarian or for RFK or whoever.
No, this is absolute bullshit.
Well, now that you put it that way…
What a bunch of horseshit.
At best, third party voting has led to splitting votes and Woodrow Wilson winning despite having only 41% of the votes and at worst, it’s done absolutely nothing.
This is why a vote for third party is a vote for trump. Because no trump supporter is gonna vote third party. If you’re voting third party, it means one less vote for Harris which means less smaller chance of her winning which means higher chance of trump losing. Anyone saying otherwise is either dumb as fuck or is purposefully trying to split the votes to help trump win.
What a load of absolute garbage.
Yes, prima facie a vote for Stein is a vote for Stein. Good job moron.
No Trumper/conservative is gonna vote green, so that leaves the pool of Harris voters that Stein is taking from.
Pretty basic understanding here.
If a Stein voter won’t be swayed, then this discourse isn’t for them so why even state it here? If someone is thinking of voting for Stein and can be swayed, let me simply say that if they vote for Stein they will get Trump. Remember, Steiners come from the lefty pool, not the righty pool.
Hope those self-righteous voters spend as much energy in off years protesting and making change locally, otherwise they’re hypocrites.
Nailed it… Probably gonna catch a lot of down votes from lib shills… But fuck 'em, this is exactly right. Honestly, I think any of these bullshit articles that will clearly push people further away must be part of the plan to help Trump… Or are the libs really still just this stupid? Have learned absolutely nothing from all their time losing
I am soooo happy to see how many people are disagreeing with the “a vote for third party is a vote for Trump!” bs that usually so approved here. This discussion thread has made my day! lol
Thanks! I knew what kind of replies I’d get, and did. Essentially, doubling-down on the electoral calculus argument, and not considering that other people have different motivations.
It’s just privilege all the way down. If you’re ok with trump, or not worried about him, you’re just riding the ivory tower
I dont like that voting third party in the US is essentially a non-vote for a party in the “system,” but it is. I voted green party in the past, and ended up regretting it. And relavent to Stein, not a good person, or even party, to vote for now. Folks need to be active, and vote down ballot, and in “off cycle” years. Change takes time, the best way to be heard is through the down ballot when helpful.
It really does suck. The current voting system not only discourages anything other than a two party system, it basically guarantees it. And then it becomes one of those things where why the hell would one of those two parties, who’s perpetually in charge, ever vote to change a system that would allow for another party (or parties) to come into power? It’s just gonna be a slog to ever get it fully changed to something like ranked choice. But I’d absolutely love to be proven wrong.
many states have initiative systems. Alaska, for instance, implented a solid Ranked Choice Voting system for statewide elections. As we see from weed legalization: eventually ballot measures get soaked up by major parties.
Yep, I was also a young idiot that voted 3rd party in a swing state in 2016. Regretted it ever since. I admit that I put the way I viewed myself and what my values were were more important to me than anything. What I did was selfish and I’m fully on the Harris bandwagon.
The current electoral system has myriad problems, and you’re absolutely right that focussing on local seats is a better path. I’m glad we’ve been seeing more comments like yours that do understand the stakes.
For people who rightly feel their interests aren’t adequately represented, rather than voting for spoilers or not voting at all, the best way to actually help fix these problems is to become an activist for electoral reform – starting now for 2028 and beyond. It usually feels like an afterthought brought up a month or two before the election, which is far too late.
Organisations like FairVote Action have been working to get alternative voting methods implemented in various states, and they’ve had some success.
If we want to escape this unfair and undemocratic voting system that’s shackled us to mediocrity and allowed fascism to gain a foothold, we have to keep thinking, educating, and acting now for the future. It’s doable if we work towards it.
Yeah…. She’s a disaster and always has been. Been saying this for years.
If you think casting any ballot is a form of protest you need to learn what real protest looks like.
Hint: It doesn’t involve participating in the system you’re protesting.
Not voting indirectly also is a vote for Trump.
Not voting isn’t a protest either. Disrupting the voting? That would be a protest. But the Greens and Stein don’t have the balls for that.
no, it’s not
Yes, it is
if that were true, you could prove it. there is no world in which non votes are counted for Trump
Good point!
indirectly
Say there are 9 voters. Four vote for Trump. Five heavily disagree with Trump (more than Trump’s four supporters). Three of them vote for Harris, two refuse to vote. Then these two people helped Trump since he’s winning now.
It works exactly the same on a much larger scale.
The only votes that help a candidate or vote for that candidate. A non-vote doesn’t help any candidate.
If you’re using a FPTP system: it absolutely and directly affects the outcome you fucking dolt.
You can just say that you don’t understand the systems in place and move on, you don’t have to die on this hill.
In the actual world, governed by actual mathematics, you are incorrect. This has been repeatedly pointed out to you, with illustrative examples, by many people. Your stubborn, willful ignorance cannot change the fabric of reality.
this is just hand waving. it’s not proof.
Still no proof, friend.
Your ‘protest vote’ for Jill Stein is really a vote for Donald Trump
And it always has been.
Sometimes the Green Party protest vote is a vote for George H.W. Bush.
And George W. Bush.
And Donald Trump (the first time).
If the Green Party wasn’t a thing, there would be a lot of elections that the Republicans wouldn’t have won, because the margins were just that thin.
Guess the Democrats would be better served by being more welcoming rather than just calling Green Party voters idiots then.
Not idiots, just woefully misguided to the detriment of others.
And you guys wonder why you lose voters to third parties. lmao
Because you can’t self reflect?
Don’t confuse your ego with the world outside yourself.
I have no problem with any of that. I’m just not voting for your candidate. Thanks!
No, no one is wondering why a tiny fraction of the public willfully chooses to throw their vote away. It’s actually impressive that on this one issue only half a percent or so are so woefully uneducated. We don’t need to wonder why, all we are concerned with is that fascism is on the ballot and so we need you to stop spreading this donkey-brainery because we even need morons to vote for Harris. If Trump is elected, as everyone paying attention knows, we are absolutely fucked. No amount of pretending to be a socialist will change that. Btw, come the fuck on. You are not a socialist. We all know what you are. WoKeFrEe is perhaps the only sliver of truth in that story you call a profile.
That’s assuming green party voters would vote for the dems, which probably isn’t the case. They’d be more likely to just not vote.
I’m not sure I agree with that estimation, but even then I’d say that the majority of Green Party voters who would decide to vote anyways would probably vote Dem over GOP, and that still matters.
Because only one of those parties is trying to deny me basic human rights, I can’t say I’m sympathetic to anyone who would choose not to vote out of spite just because they don’t personally have as much at stake.
You must not have been alive in the 90s or 00s if you think Dems wouldnt and dont want to deny your basic human rights
I remember when the Dems repealed roe v Wade.
Oh wait that was trump and the GOP. My mistake.
I was definitely there when the dems tried to ban music based on it’s offensive nature.
Oh wait that was Reagan and the GOP. My mistake.
I was there when the Dems banned foreign travelers based on nationality.
Oh wait that was trump and the GOP. My mistake.
Neither Dems nor the GOP did the first one, Dems did fail to ever codify the right to privacy or bodily autonomy though, despite every legal scholar for 50 years saying roe was a Shakey decision.
The second one never happened, unless you’re confused by just the general existence of the FCC with your half remembered fantasy, and yes, I do remember when Dems fully supported banning travellers based on nationality, Biden cowrote that bill.
That could mean that 60% of the US leans green.
Or they’re just apathetic and attaching a social meaning to their apathy feels good.
she ran during obama as well so it was also, technically, a vote for mccain
If you guys think the spoiler effect isn’t real then I’ve got a bridge to sell you. I voted Green in 2000. Never again.
I voted Green in 2020 because I hated Biden, and after 4 years of a Biden presidency I have concluded that I was a fucking moron and that my vote for Hawkins didn’t amount to shit.
I remember what the Trump admin was like, and we’re just now concluding the Biden admin, and when I look at the options on the table right now, I have:
- Trump: A fascist who wants me dead.
- Harris: A milquetoast liberal that will do a fine job at governing.
- Stein: A valueless Green Party spoiler who is rooting for Trump (who wants me dead).
- Not voting: A coward’s way out.
Harris is the obvious choice for anyone who actually wants America to improve.
Climate town just did a really interesting video about how the election in 2000 was literally stolen by the Republicans via brothers Bush and Bush and their corrupt secretary of State in Florida. And honestly wouldn’t matter if you had voted red, Green blue purple or rainbow.
Yes, it was stolen, however they were only able to do that because the margins were close. Had the green voters instead voted for the candidate closest to them that had a chance (Gore), then it would have mattered.
Green votes were well within the margin that would have triggered the automatic recount. It just would have been an automatic recount for Bush, not gore. Meaning if they blocked the hand recount like they did, it would have gone to gore.
The margins in the swing states legitimately come down to a couple thousand votes sometimes.
Don’t be stupid. Vote Kamala. If you hate for some reason fine, but it’s either that or…oh dear God.
The dems will never learn a lesson if they lose, they never have
Voting for Jill Stein is only “taking a vote away” from Harris if you assume that the voter would’ve voted for Harris without Stein in the race.
That’s a big assumption and I don’t think there’s any good reason to make such an assumption.
Voting for a minor party in terms of the effect on the outcome is approximately equivalent to not voting.
Other than history showing more ds vote for greens than GOP???
How dumb are you?
As the other option to them is them simply not voting at all; thus not getting their down ballot votes for amendments and other Dem races. Sure. Great idea.
How dumb are you?
If the DNC wants green/PSL votes so bad… why not… court said vote… at all? Most notable difference being stance on Israel/palestine, and some socialist policies. Instead the DNC is praising Israel and cracking down on immigration to court republicans. So… can’t really blame them for refusing to vote for what is against their views.
Exactly what I’ve been saying. Democrats are clearly making a choice to die on and sacrifice our democracy to the hill of imagined centrist voters that make perfect, unquestioning and loyal followers for their party. If they lose for it then they alone are responsible for their loss and they should be the ones we direct our anger at for leaving voters on the table in what they themselves call a close and existentially important race.
If they would rather lose elections than court progressive voters, if they would like to win without us as they so clearly do; because we are less convenient to their bottom line than the aforementioned loyal centrist; then that should be laid bare for the world to see. We shouldn’t let them pass their strategic failures off on voters for having morals and sticking to them.
To be fair, while I’d be like whoa lets not say centrists don’t exist, someone going “Hm idk Donald Trump’s policy of … lets just let cops go wild and kill anyone they want for one day sounds pretty rational and good lets weigh that with Harris’ policy.” is uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh not a fucking centrist.
I mean those perfectly loyal clown fearing pineapple pizza hating plastic people are clearly here in the comments with us. They would have voted for a dementia addled corporate goon if he hadn’t literally gone silent for 30 seconds during a debate. They will throw our “privilege” in our faces, and claim that we don’t care about minorities so we aren’t doing everything in our power to bend the arc of history away from Trump. Not even realizing that their own cowardly groveling is the fucking reason he ever got a spot on the ballot.
The residents of Ohio and Pennsylvania who are undecided aren’t here. They’re undecided because they can’t be bothered to look. Or they’re so disillusioned with the concept of representative government they ignore it as a defence mechanism.
Awesome post!
those perfectly loyal clown fearing pineapple pizza hating plastic people
Is this like the MTG space laser lizard Jews?
I mean those perfectly loyal clown fearing pineapple pizza hating plastic people are clearly here in the comments with us. They would have voted for a dementia addled corporate goon if he hadn’t literally gone silent for 30 seconds during a debate.
Right, and every one of those “vote blue no matter who” folks already voted for Biden in the last election and barely eeked out an electoral college win. It’s a dice roll if they can do it again. If democrats want to widen that margin then all they have to do is offer literally anything at all to progressive voters.
Agree with everything you’re saying. The white moderate (re:MLK) is willing to throw anyone under the bus to save their own asses. They will not stand up for what’s right if it comes at the risk of losing their seat, so all you have to do is threaten that seat and they will all collectively sit nice and pretty.
Agreed, friend! You get my upvote.
You think…centrists are imaginary?
My friend, you might be in a bit of a social bubble. Like someone in the deep South who only ever sees Trump yard signs and thinks “everyone” supports Trump.
Nope, didn’t say that. I said the perfect voters they are courting instead of progressive voters are imaginary.
Oh, well that’s still pretty stupid. Centrist voters are by definition less loyal, since they have to be courted in the first place. Democrats don’t expect centrist voters to be unquestioningly loyal, or else they wouldn’t even advertise to them.
No, I’d say they’re pretty loyal to republicans (else you’d be correct, Democrats wouldn’t be courting them with republican policy) and they don’t question the status quo or capitalism, which gives Democrats plenty of room to maintain loyalty to their donors.
Based on which party they’re registered as? That doesn’t mean much, it doesn’t mean they’d definitely vote for the D candidate if there wasn’t another option. You’re assuming that the D candidate otherwise has that vote locked down just by being a democrat.
You can’t “steal” a vote because no one owns that vote except the individual voter and the individual voter is not being robbed when they decide to vote 3rd party.
Great deduction skills there.
Sure, you can’t literally steal a vote, but either you’re unfamiliar with American colloquialisms or being deliberately obtuse. It’s a term that describes exactly what you’re doing here - actively trying to convince people to vote against something using deception.
Yes, you’re being deceptive by trying to drive democratic voters to split their vote so the right wins. I have yet to see you make a single good faith argument here.
In reality a not insignificant portion of them would probably vote for Trump to “own the libs” honestly.
A not insignificant portion of them will vote for Donald because they are MAGAs cosplaying about wanting a third party.
I don’t know why people are so worried, surely all the moderate Republicans you courted by mirroring GOP policy on immigration, the border, the military, aid to Israel, fossil fuels, social services, and the death penalty will be enough to win? I was assured by very confident Dems that they didn’t need my dumb lefty vote to win this election 🤷
They say this every single election and then give us genocide joe.
Cornell West 2024.
It’s funny how America voted for Obama and now has Bush’ foreign policy anyways.
There it is again, that funny feeling
Foreign policy is ironically where most dems and Republicans find the most common ground.
Well, at least it was until he-who-shall-not-be-named decided Putins cum tasted so incredibly he would never get off his knees again
I admire your spirit, brother! Good for you for standing up for yourself! I’m voting Rachele Fruit, but I support anyone who isn’t supporting the Democrats and Republicans.
Who is this article for?
It doesn’t address the real problem here: That first past the post voting is a broken system and that main party candidates should make more effort to fix this glaring hole in the voting system.
Because fptp is garbage, third parties are little more than a method to undermine a candidates opposition (in the US in 2024 the green party is ironically propped up in part by the republican party)
By leaving out fptp it just sounds like anti democracy drivel.
I wish we had ranked choice voting, it just makes so much more sense
Yeah, and there are two major parties that don’t really want ranked choice voting. lol
There is really only one major party against ranked choice voting. Every year, Democratic caucuses vote to add ranked choice voting to their platform. Democrats have managed to get Ranked Choice Voting in several cities.
Republicans do not. Republicans repeal RCV. Every RCV repeal in the US was done by Republicans.
Both parties are not the same, and if you really want a third party candidate, you’re better off getting rid of every Republican you can.
Most all Harris voters agree things need to be changed.
We also agree that NOW is not the time for that. Just, let’s make sure the orange man stays out of power first before arguing what to change.
That’s nice dear, you’ve said this exact same thing since Reagan.
When is the right time?
I’m down for December of this year
first past the post voting is a broken system and that main party candidates should make more effort to fix this glaring hole in the voting system.
The Democratic Party would rather lose to the Republican Party than change the rules to allow for a multi-party system.
That aside, the major parties don’t want to reform the system they have because it’s worked very well for them. Our parties are incredibly old by world standards. The Democrats have been around since the 18th century, and the Republicans have been around since the 1850s.
The Democratic Party would rather lose to the Republican Party than change the rules to allow for a multi-party system.
That’s a weird false dichotomy. Why are you painting those as the two options?
The democrats supported RCV in my state.
The problem is if you believe this entirely then there’s no mechanism to affect parties. Which is easy to disprove.
The overarching reality is that the parties are affected by things: culturally there’s been a long period (150 years) of slowly unrestricting people with lots of resistance. Then there’s also a economic right wing drift for decades, largely along capital accumulation lines.
I buy the idea that the parties are hard to affect but the idea they are impossible to affect seems ahistorical.
Lol there’s definitely a way to affect them.
Two actually.
One is $$$$
The other one you aren’t allowed to propose.
?There’s several ways to affect politics
-
Corruption - largely the higher corruption is the more advocates to lower taxes for their donors. This is driven by capital accumulation.
-
Bottom up struggles - largely if a number of states do a thing the federal politicians will pick it up. Voting rights, marijuana legalization etc fall into this. Realistically this is probably the way to pick up votes.
-
Media driven - Trump is primarily influenced this way with scares, fear, bullshit. The last 40 years are driven heavily by media scares funded by right wing billionaires. Factual information sometimes breaks through here: I would argue the obamacare ban on pre-existing conditions was the outcome of a media cycle. Usually these are bad rather than good.
-
Personal affectations of politicians. Cheney’s daughter caused him to be sensible on gay rights, McCain’s stance on torture was a result of his time as a POW. George Bush’s daddy issues about Iraq lead to millions of people dying. If enough people shoot at trump I do see him passing gun legislation (not encouraging it, just speculation)
-
The Democratic Party would rather lose to the Republican Party than change the rules to allow for a multi-party system.
Exactly! I wish I could upvote you more than once, friend!
Some level of election reform will be on the ballot in 9 states this fall. Make sure you vote, if you can!
Also worth noting that these efforts are generally led mainly by democrats, with support from some moderate republicans. In contrast, 10 republican-led state legistatures have passed outright bans on RCV. One of these parties is not like the other!
https://www.npr.org/2024/06/05/nx-s1-4969563/ranked-choice-voting-bans
Bibi marches from genocide to a full-scale war in the Middle East. The donkey glumly follows its master. But they fein suprise when we don’t meakly trudge behind.
In California, it doesn’t matter because the results are already known. In other states the calculus is a bit different.
Online rhetoric sways voters in swing states. Your vote may not change the outcome, but your words might.
That’s absolutely true, especially for a paper like the LA Times. I am dubious that there is any appreciable effect when it comes to random blogs and so forth.
Good!
I must have really pissed you off huh?
Not at all.
Right? Imagine believing there are enough conscientious progressives / leftists to flip CA red because of third party voting. Sure, Jan.
So practically speaking, there is no anti-genocide vote. There is no health care for everyone vote. There is no reduction in firearm caused deaths of children and teens vote. There is no anti corporate regulatory capture vote. These things just are not possible to achieve in America by voting.
There is a vote for MORE or LESS of all of the above. It’s not like your vote doesn’t matter. Do you want more genocide, or less genocide? “No genocide” isn’t an option. So do you want more genocide, or less genocide?
OK I want LESS.
I have been wanting less for a long time. Those things I want LESS of don’t seem to be reduced by much since I became eligible to vote. Voting’s not enough.
Awesome, vote Democrat.
Voting’s not enough.
Almost correct. There’s just not enough voting. Having a razor thin Democrat majority doesn’t net us any victories, it just prevents (most) catastrophe. You want progress, give us a 5-senator majority (enough to override the Manchins and Sinemas). You want major progress, give us 60 dems, to bypass the filiburster. Though, Democrats finally seem willing to end the filibuster rule, so at least we should see some progress on that front.
Which is which? Like, seriously. Put the recent headlines about Israel’s actions against the other guy’s vague, contradictory statements and demonstrated lack of deep interest in foreign affairs. It’s not clear at all.
Put the recent headlines about Israel’s actions against the other guy’s vague, contradictory statements and demonstrated lack of deep interest in foreign affairs.
You’re comparing Netanyahu to Trump? I don’t understand.
For what it’s worth, I’m comparing what’s actually happening (genocide and the Middle East spiraling into war) with Democrats in office (tsk-tsking but providing material support to Netanyahu) to what history shows would likely happen with the other guy in office (hot air and bombast, but almost certainly not any greater material support).
You know Trump has called for the extermination of all Palestinians, right? If you think Trump will be soft on Palestinians…well, you don’t. You’re lying. If you’re saying Trump would (or even might) be easier on Palestinians than Biden or Harris, you’re just straight up lying. There’s no possible way to be ignorant enough to make an honest mistake there. It’s a lie, and probably propaganda, because why else would you say it?
More directly relevant, many members of Netanyahu’s government have also called for the extermination of all Palestinians, and they have the U.S. government providing political cover while they do it.
Why is that more relevant?
Ahahaha spoken like a true Nazi watching Jews being boarded on a train.
Wtf? Becaue I think bombs shouldn’t be indiscriminately dropped on children I’m a nazi? Do people really think like this? If I don’t advocate for the elimination of all Palestinians then I’m antisemitic? Is that how your mind works?
They’re a troll.
Just wanna point out that calling someone a troll is against the civility rules in this sub. Thank you!
You’re a troll too.
Nope.
Ok
My guess is a hexbear or .ml user got bored (because they’re caustic and people block them quickly), so they made a .world account and are doing some low-skill trolling attempts.
It’s cute when you realize they’re probably piss poor living in squalor and doing this for trump bux.
The thing about the “muh genocide!” crowd, is that if they gave that much of a shit about issues within their own country, maybe Americans could get some nice things once in a while, above and beyond the run of the mill bread and circuses.
Accepting that you have limited power, choosing an issue, and acting locally has become a lost art. People would rather bitch about how it should be different.
Single-issue voting is a plague.
Stein refused to call Putin a war criminal, so yes. There is no anti genocide vote.
Yes. This is correct. Kudos to you for reaching the correct conclusion. It’s difficult to admit the system is fucked beyond repair; the fundamental shortcoming of Jill Stein voters. The only hope is to continue voting for the most progressive of the two candidates and pressure the winner to change the system (if that is even possible)
You know what, F anyone who concern trolls people for protest voting.
First, it’s their right, leave them the F alone.
Second, maybe it’s not a protest vote but a conscience vote. Maybe they don’t want to support a president and vice-president who have enabled tens of thousands of children being blown to smithereens in front of our very eyes and who will almost certainly continue to do so.
F them all.
Edit: also, by concern trolling like this, they’re probably pushing the Green Party voters to harden their stance instead of convincing them to change who they’re going to vote for.
