With all the dismal news about America lately, my home, I’m starting to seriously look at where else to move.
Putting aside for now the difficulty of actually immigrating to some countries, I’m curious on the opinions of others (especially people living outside the U.S) on this.
What I’m looking for in a country is, I imagine, similar to many people. I’m trying to find somewhere that will exhibit:
- Low racism
- Low sexism
- Low LGBTQ-phobia
- Strong laws around food quality and safety
- Strong laws about environmental protection
- Strong laws against unethical corporate practices (monopoly, corruption, lobbying, etc)
- Strong laws for privacy
- Good treatment of mentally ill, homeless, and impoverished people
Those are the real important things. Of course the nice-to-haves are almost too obvious to be worth listing, low cost of living, strong art and cultural scene, nice environment, and so on.
My actual constraints that might really matter are that I only speak English (and maybe like A1-2 level German). It seems incredibly intimidating to try to find employment somewhere when I can hardly speak the language.
I know nowhere on Earth is perfect, just curious what people may have to suggest. I hope this question isn’t too selfish to ask here.
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ITT: A lot of people doing the typical StackOverflow thing of asserting the question is bad and answering a different question instead.
No country’s that great but Canada’s doing aight.
Thanks for understanding, I do feel a bit hurt by some insinuations in some responses, but I understand why citizens of the world would feel unhappy with whiny Americans right now. I just hope it doesn’t progress into a hatred. Many of my fellow Americans are very good people, but unfortunately we are so disenfranchised politically - I think it’s hard to convey the extent of it. The state of things here isn’t a result of laziness and unwillingness to participate. But in fairness, I didn’t refine my original post deeply and it came off not quite right. I’m not looking to selfishly abandon ship or become a silent drain on another country. I would love to build community, but it’s certainly easier in some places than others, for a wide variety of reasons.
I think this is a very valid question. Sometimes the grass really is greener on the other side.
I like it here in Germany. Laws and social safety are relatively strong. Oftentimes I see an article about some chemical common in food being a cancer risk, and then I research it and see that it is a US-centered article and that the EU already banned the chemical years ago.
Right wing populism is strongly on the rise here though. Racism and LGBTQ-phobia will strongly depend, with smaller villages and regions in East Germany being worse on average.
If you’re a top earner, you most likely won’t get the crazy high salaries here that you might expect from the US (even if accounted for cost of living, childcare etc).
Bureaucracy is annoying.
Rent can be very high depending on the region.
Job market strongly favors German speakers. I heard the Netherlands are more open in that regard. I think this will be your biggest hurdle.
Just noticed I used “strongly” three times in the post. Gonna need to find new adverbs.
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What I learned about Germany most recently is that it’s super-mega FOSS-prioritizing, which is awesome!
It’s not Super-Mega FOSS-prioritizing, but there are some efforts into that direction.
also in my experience, while a lot of Germans are happy to chat with you in English in a social setting, business talk is usually expected to be held in German
My German teacher had a fairly profound impact on my life, I knew him for four years and he was absolutely enamored with everything about Germany. Like the German equivalent of a weeb. Some of that has transferred to me, I like basically every aspect of German culture I’m familiar with, especially the sense of humor. Since I already have some language familiarity, it’s always been near the top of my list, until recently with the AfD stuff giving me a bit of a fright. Although I saw they were recently classified as extremists, which was reassuring (thanks Lemmy for being such a good news source!)
It’s of course too bad to hear about the rural racism, especially since I’d prefer a rural place of living, but it seems those two things always go together to some extent.
I’m certainly going to enroll in classes for whatever language corresponds to my target country. I really want to be an exemplary citizen of anywhere I go. I feel it’s an honor to be accepted for a visa somewhere so I don’t want to take that lightly. My biggest concern is just that I won’t be that great with the target language despite my best efforts.
Thank you very much for your insights and kind words!
Come to Canada, the weed is legal
Canada is certainly tempting if only on the basis that I would be closer to my family, and my family closer to me. And the recent election results were very relieving. Weed is legal here too though, haha.
You should instead put energy into your environment and community to make positive changes in your area.
Yes, I’ve thought about this a lot and do make efforts to improve my environment. But it’s disheartening, the vast majority of people in my community are extreme Trump supporters. I know people who threw parties to celebrate the renaming of the Gulf of Mexico. It’s hard to know how to improve my community in light of that, and in fact it’s hard to even want to.
But I am open to suggestions, what do you think are some of the best things I could do to improve my area?
- Strong laws against unethical corporate practices (monopoly, corruption, lobbying, etc)
- Good treatment of mentally ill, homeless, and impoverished people
These exist almost nowhere in the world
Yes indeed :( it’s a wishlist for sure, not feasible in it’s purest form.
The Netherlands, Germany and Scandinavia have all those things and people tend to speak English really well.
As for the ‘No racism’ part, skip the Netherlands. One of the current governing parties is openly racist and can even be considered fascist. Also, we have a huge housing crisis, so finding a place to live may be challenging.
European racism is casual compared to even everyday American racism, even considering the likes of AfD
I agree. The difference is that we are not so polarized (yet, we are getting there) and it’s not systemically embedded in the police force (yet, depends where you look)
Yes, I’ve had this suspicion awhile. Last year an ex-coworkerif mine was quoting the disproportionate crime rate among black people statistics at me and then leveled up into saying Africa is such a desolate place and so only unintelligent people would have stayed there in ancient times, thus meaning there’s a selective breeding for unintelligence in that continent. I tried to argue with him about the dubiousness of IQ measures in the first place, let alone IQ heritability, and the deep statistical flaws in the crime rate argument, which don’t disentangle race from poverty, but as soon as I tried to make these counterarguments he brushed me off as being “brainwashed” by “lies about equality”.
I don’t even know what to do about something like that other than just stop talking to the person. What’s terrifying is he’s otherwise pretty smart, totally fits in with respectable society. Not some stereotypical redneck racist type. I think about that a lot and wonder how many others like him are going totally undetected around me every day.
Yeah, racism in europe is largely stereotypes directed at whole groups that are rooted in truth but grossly overblown, eg “black people just want to commit crime”, “arabs want to install sharia”, “east asians want to eat your dog”, “indians want to outgrow the native population” and other nonsense.
If you ask the huge majority of the people who are saying these things if they interact with people in these groups, they’ll say “yes, but they’re some of the good ones” not realising it’s only a tiny fraction who aren’t, but also accepting that race doesn’t automatically make you anything.
Comparing that to the US where (from what I’m aware of) there’s both “I refuse to even speak to members of xyz race because they’re subhuman” and “xyz race needs all the help they can get because they have such a tough time” it seems so hard for individuals to just live a normal life in the US?
Thanks for this counterpoint, that’s exactly the sort of thing I think people need to see when thinking about moving (whether emigrating from America or anywhere else) - what’s the big problems for people there, what’s their equivalent of these problems. Would you mind telling me which party this is so I can do some more research on it?
The party is called the PVV. Their racism is mostly aimed at Muslims, but they’re not a big fan of most other groups of immigrants either. Highly educated expats with a work visa largely get a pass, though I think there are some plans to limit their benefits.
I wouldn’t rely on Germany to remain stable and democratic these days. The fascists are the strongest party and the new chancellor is an oligarchy stooge of the worst kind.
Things aren’t much better in The Netherlands. The PVV is part of the government now. The good news is that having to form a coalition with other parties, seems to have reigned in some of their worst tendencies. Also, their minister of immigration is a total nitwit that can’t get any sort of actual policy implemented. If they keep failing to make any kind of progress on this issue, hopefully they won’t do as well in the next election.
It certainly seems that way! Some of the ESL speakers I’ve met from Europe are more articulate than native speakers that I work with. What I most wonder about is the prevalence of English in the workplace. I think I’d feel guilty using English at work in country with its own different official language, unless it was really like, standard even before “the guy from America” joined the team, lol.
There are some large, internationally oriented companies where you can get by speaking only English. I’ve also seen more than one tech company hire programmers that don’t speak Dutch. So it depends on the industry.
If you want to get some perspectives from Americans living in the Netherlands, you could check out Itz Sky’s and Jordan Green’s channels on YouTube.
Spain is kind of nice, based on your list. I’ve been considering it.
Same here. UK is done for.
Thanks, for some reason Spain has never been near the top of my consideration. I suppose that’s because it’s not one of those classic “top ten” type of countries that seem to always be at the top of lists of good things. But it seems the margins of improvement are slim between top 30 and top 10, so I’ll have to look more into that.
I often recommend Spain for US emigrants, quality of life and cultural norms are similar, and Spanish is easier to pick up when you’ve heard it as much as you do from US media.
Netherlands and Scandies have a great reputation, but there’s significant culture shock and you risk feeling more alienated for longer.
Was personally worked from Spain for half a year last winter and in my experience it is nice, but I found it harder to mingle with the Spanish at times. Their English was not amazing and it seems they have a tight knit community, with which I mean if you are not family it’s hard to get in.
I personally would consider Portugal more. I have a few very nice Portuguese colleagues which maybe helps because they show us around when we’re there, but in general I found it easier to connect to people there. And apart from the climate (Portugal can be very wet and a little bit cooler because of the ocean), they have all the good things Spain has (food, drink, a more laid back way of celebrating live). And they have pasteis de nata, which is a reason to live there in itself.
Just be careful with eating francesinha during lunch.
US ex pat here:
I think you will find more success in this if you find a place or two you want to live in and run TO something instead of AWAY from something. It’ll always be a bit of both, but this post reads more like (very understandably) “get me out of here” than “I want to be somewhere new”.
Being an ex pat has plenty of hard aspects of course. I think some of them are made quite a bit easier when you passionately dive into the culture and life in a new place. At least to me it would be impossible if my head was still in the US.
Of course you’re doing nothing wrong! Just some advice if it gets a bit more serious.
Like many in the thread: Canada, Australia/New Zealand, Scandinavia, Germany, UK (not that they’re doing fantastic right now), Netherlands would be my top choices with your criteria. Most large companies will be more likely to have English speaking as the working language and you’ll learn the local language (s) while living there. Best of luck!
Yeah, some of that is the impromptu nature of this post. I’ve thought about moving to other countries since high school. I’m very interested in a lot of cultural things that are just vastly more prevalent and thriving in Europe. Sometimes it feels like I was born in the wrong place. So there are definitely places I’d love to run to. I visited Switzerland and it felt like heaven on Earth compared to my state. I wanted to move there long before Trump’s first election. But it seems that particular country is near impossible to move to, plus Swiss German seems particularly tough.
I really like learning about other cultures and such, I’m afraid I may have come off entirely wrong in the brevity and laser-focus of my original post.
Very interesting that you say the working language would be English. That’s fantastic news. I definitely think I can get to a basic conversational level with languages pretty quickly, but reaching the technical professional level is my big fear. So that’s very encouraging to hear that it may not be so dire as that at least in the Netherlands. Thank you for taking the time to respond!
Yeah, certainly depends exactly where you go. A capital city and a rural town will feel extremely different on English speaking (and cultural/political views at that).
I think it’s quite possible to do though. Happy to chat or answer any specific questions you have, especially if they’re Scandinavia based.
It’s a tough choice to do something like you’re talking about but extremely fulfilling. I wouldn’t trade the decision for the world at this point. I wish you the best of luck!
I suggest developing a plan that is not just about building a better lifenfor yourself, but for others and community. For example, China ticks all of your boxes (yes, even privacy in comparison to the US), but it is also important to consider how you would personally make China better in the process, as you are, by moving, saying that your current conditions are pushing you to want to leave. So what about your current place of living was driven to that and how can this be made the case the world over?
Ultimately, capitalism is the underlying force of reaction, conservatism, and deprivation. It sets the guard rails of social policy, funds and purges the thought-moving forces of society. It creates homelessness. It destroys countries and societies, forcing them to adopy defensive and antagonistic positions to be viable and not only dominated. So I would recommend also thinking of this question in terms of how you might build your life as well as do well in fighting capitalism. As, ultimately, if this force is not recognized, you might find a place that ticka your boxes but is ultimately a forcr for capitalist expansion, e.g. most OECD countries. This wouldn’t make you a bad person but it is a major wrinkle in the idea of building a good life by finding a place based on these (all very reasonable) boxes to tick off.
China is very much not low racism. You will encounter quite a lot of racism especially if you are black. Everyone is different but the racists are far more public about being racist.
If you are white you get stares and reverse racism until you mess up then real racism. If you’re black you just get racism.
I deeply agree with the community aspect. I can see how my original post came off as self-centered, but it’s always been my vision to be an active contributor to the local and larger communities of wherever I live. I am generally a pro-social person and do my best to help my local community. I definitely agree that building a strong community is vital to the criteria I’m looking for. It’s just that my current community feels largely like a lost cause. We certainly have a subculture that is what I’m looking for, but it’s just that - a subculture. And while that may be comforting and nice, it’s not enough to get politicians to listen.
I try to stave off the harms of capitalism as best I can while also balancing my own happiness for my limited time on Earth. But that’s a topic I’m sure we could both write essays about, so maybe best to save that for another time.
You called America your home. There is something to be said for home improvement. I’m fortunate to be dual citizen, so I could leave whenever I want. I choose not to because it is where my parents, my sister and her kids are. I’ll stay here and make whatever improvements, however small they are, as long as my folks still live here.
Yes, I wouldn’t be renouncing U.S citizenship unless I really had to. I’ve stayed this long precisely because I don’t want to leave the “problem spot” and cause it to only have extremists left over living here. I do try to support events and businesses that support causes I agree with, but that’s about all there is to do as far as I can see. As I said in other comments, I would truly prefer to fix things here, as I like many things about my life here. But it’s starting to feel like I’m complicit in something wrong by remaining a resident and I’m not sure what to do about it.
I’m in a similar boat and was considering moving to Ireland or Chile. In the end, I couldn’t overcome the immigration requirements, so I decided to just move to a better state within the US. Not sure if it’s the best option, but maybe that could also improve things for you.
Ireland ticks most of your boxes. If any of your grandparents are Irish you can get dual citizenship. English speaking and lots of cultural crossover etc.
Closer for trips back too. Think it’s only a 5 hour flight to New York for example.
Fix your own damn country. You actually have power to fix it over there. The rest of the world doesn’t.
Telling the passengers of the Titanic to grab a bucket after it snapped in half is not as helpful as you might think.
I would certainly rather fix this one than leave, but it’s pretty dismal. There are already large protests, almost nobody is satisfied with how things are, yet nothing changes. Our elected officials don’t listen to us, even on the off chance that one I like gets elected in my area. The best I can hope for is that someone will run who will just keep things as bad as they are, nobody ever actually improves things. I’ve never had an opportunity to vote for a candidate that actually represents my interests. I live in one of the most far right places in the country.
I really would like to fix it here. But I am very unsure as to how. There’s lots of community togetherness types of opportunities, but unfortunately having friends with like minds does no good when anyone with power doesn’t listen. And now even protesting, no, even just showing up to a political event on “the wrong side” is terrifying because of the effectiveness of mass surveillance and the complete lack of oversight on our police. I am open to specific suggestions on how to fix it.
That’s most European countries. Pick one, learn its language and immigration laws, and off you go
Reading the list, NZ does pretty well… Right to the end…
- good treatment of mentally ill, homeless and impoverished people…
We don’t do that here
- good treatment of mentally ill, homeless and impoverished people…
