You may have noticed a distinct lack of return2ozma. This is due to their admitting, in a public comment, that their engagement here is in bad faith:
I’m sure there will be questions, let me see if I can address the most obvious ones:
- Can I still post negative stuff about Biden?
Absolutely! We have zero interest in running an echo chamber. However, if ALL you’re posting is negative, you may want to re-think your priorities. You get out of the world what you put into it and all that.
- Why now?
Presumption of innocence. It may be my own fault, but I do try to think the best of people, and even though they were posting negative articles, they weren’t necessarily WRONG. Biden’s poll numbers, particularly in minority demographics ARE in the shitter. They are starting to get better, but he still has a hell of a hill to climb.
- Why a 30 day temp ban and not a permanent ban?
The articles return2ozma shared weren’t bad, faked, or from some wing-nut bias site like “beforeitsnews.com”, they were legitimate articles from established and respected news agencies, pointing out the valid problems Biden faces.
The problem was ONLY posting the negatives, over and over and then openly admitting that dishonest enagement is their purpose.
Had they all been bullshit articles? It would not have taken anywhere near this much time to lay the ban and it would have been permanent.
30 days seems enough time for them to re-think their strategery and come back to engage honestly.
I’m ok with this, it was borderline spam with how many articles they managed to find and post all on the same theme.
I’m sure that troll account will behave from now on /s
Hey, a permaban is always on the table. ;)
I find it’s about 70/30 when it comes to temp bans. 7/10 I get PMs of “sorry, I’ll do better” and then 3/10 it’s… well…
Christ in a hand basket, if that’s genuine then I say ban the troll
Oh, yeah, this guy was permabanned across the whole instance, not just Politics.
Good
Whoever that was was going off about this, lmao.
I think he got banned in my instance as well because he kept posting your profile photo over and over, saying nasty ass shit. I blocked him real quick.
Oh, the photo guy was a TOTALLY DIFFERENT one.
Y’all got profile photos? Weird
Yikes -ee-ola
That’s unhinged
…and people behaving like this is why we cannot have nice things. I can remember the days of BBS (often heavily moderated) as contrasted with the (mostly unmoderated) USENET.
I think things on the unmoderated side were only barely holding on prior to The Eternal September; in hindsight, it is surprising things worked as well as they did.
Normally I’m not one to even entertain the thought of commenting on a political thread, but I feel it would be disingenuous to click the button without any feedback in this case. This decision leaves me with a large enough lack of confidence in the future moderation of this community(especially given we’re in an election year) such that I can’t in good faith leave it on my feed and I will be blocking this comm after this comment.
While I agree that Ozma deserved a ban for spam, the justification used for this is frankly appalling. Misrepresentation of bias as bad-faith, especially with the admission that largely good sources were used is unacceptable.
A well-known propagandists gets banned from a news community and guess who losers their minds over it.
The explanation is sound. They even agreed that what they were posing wants necessarily wrong, but it was clearly overtly biased and to a single purpose.
I’ve been calling this out since I’ve joined. I’m glad he’s gone.
Hell yes. But the mod logs don’t show a ban.
The articles return2ozma shared weren’t bad, faked, or from some wing-nut bias site like “beforeitsnews.com”, they were legitimate articles from established and respected news agencies, pointing out the valid problems Biden faces.
I clicked that link and wow… what sort of people trust a site like that lol?
Facebookers. :)
pretty sure I saw some bad ones. Daily Wire comes to mind
Dude thank God
I won’t pretend to know what the fully correct decision on stuff like this is; it’s definitely complex bordering on impossible (among other reasons because I actually think it’s good to have vocal easily-identifiable bad-faith accounts, because they tee up great conversations even if the original intent behind the post wasn’t good and people are annoyed by it).
But that being said it seems crazy that some of these accounts are still allowed to post here freely, given what was in my view some pretty ironclad indication that they’re not posting in good faith.
pointing out the valid problems Biden faces
So this touches on one of my key least favorite things about return2ozma – I’d actually go well beyond what you saw in that one comment from him, and say that at this point, he’s clearly not just pointing out valid problems. Posting negative polls is one thing, mostly completely fine. Everyone’s got their viewpoint and allowed to post whatever view they want. But he’ll also post specific assertions about Biden that objectively aren’t true (marijuana policy being a good example), and then continue posting them after it’s shown to him that they’re not true – all the while swearing that he’s trying to help, just bringing up all this negative information because he really wants the Democrats to win, and so is giving constructive criticism so they can change course.
IDK man. That to me is very clear indication that he’s lying about what he’s trying to do, and being deliberately dishonest with what he posts. I think the posts I’m referring to were in some meme sub, not here, so maybe what you’re saying about the content he posts specifically in !politics@lemmy.world coming technically from reputable sources is a valid counter argument. IDK. Maybe. But to me, avowing “I am trying to help Biden” while posting objectively false criticism of him, and not really pretending it’s any other way than that, is actually worse by quite a lot than avowing “I am here to post negative information about Biden.” (not that that latter one is good…)
Like I say I’m not trying to weigh in on what the right answer is (either with ozma or the other similar accounts), because I don’t really see a good right answer. Just tossing in my observations as a person who doesn’t have to take the responsibility of trying to figure out how to handle it.
(@return2ozma@lemmy.world - I feel a little unfair about posting this in a forum where you aren’t allowed in to defend yourself; if you want to create a thread anywhere else with any response you want to make, I’ll link to it from here so you can give your side of anything where you feel I’ve been inaccurate / unfair.)
My take is the dude just filled the board with unrelenting misery. I’m happy for the occasional reminder that Biden could be doing better. I think he’s flat wrong on certain policies. But oddly enough I still get that point of view without R2O, while enjoying my time here a lot more.
God, the unrelenting misery is killing me in this platform. I think the thing I’m most sick and tired of more than anything else is the constant stream of The Usual Suspects butting in with “But what about Gaza?!” on Every. Single. Post.
Post an article about Biden proposing a ceasefire agreement in the war? Complain about Biden giving support to Israel!
Post an article about Biden celebrating pride month? Complain about Biden funding Israel!
Article about Biden forgiving another batch of student loans? “BUt Biden supports israel!”
Article about Trump getting convicted of felonies? “But Biden! Gaza! Israel!”
Article about a small town library fighting LGBTQ+ book bans? “GAZA! ISRAEL! BIDEN! BAD”
Article about a goddamn random topic completely unrelated to Biden, Trump, Israel, politics, or the US at all? “GENOCIIIIIIIIIIDE!”
It’s at the point where I’ve cut back on Lemmy usage entirely because every comment thread I click on is like navigating a fucking minefield of misery. Nothing good can ever happen, no policy changes can ever be celebrated, no events can be remarked upon, without someone butting in with a reminder that Genocide Mother-Fucking Joe is personally shoveling coal into the palestinian child incinerator. No post can ever leave you with any emotion other than the thin veil of doomerism settling upon your shoulders, a pall of depression casting itself over the tragedy of the world, and a sense that modern society is an Aristocrats joke that has long since crossed the line from “horrifying” to “funny,” then back to “horrifying,” then back to “funny,” before settling itself so firmly in “horrifying” that the audience is casting nervous glances and hoping that someone else is the first to call the police.
Man, the first thing I did when I joined Lemmy was to develop a policy of blocking anyone that didn’t think I would enjoy seeing or interacting with. They didn’t have to do anything wrong per se, but if I thought they argued in bad faith or jumped to ad hominem attacks or whatever, I’d block them.
I was worried at first. Some of them were prolific, and I didn’t want this place to feel empty. But I’ve found that I’m spending less time arguing with people who only want to piss me off gives me more time to interact with more thoughtful folks. The responses in turn encourage them to post more. So by blocking people I don’t like and encouraging people I do, I think that helps to make the community better as a whole, not even just for me.
Life is too short. I come here to interact with people I enjoy. We don’t have to agree, it just has to not be someone who inspires the thought, “not this motherfucker again.” Try it. It makes Lemmy so much better.
Good luck, my friend.
There’s that, too, yes.
Well said. For each article, they’d consistently select the source with the most inflammatory headline and perspective and post it in several places at once, ensuring a clearly negative perception of Biden for casual browsers.
There’s no shortage of criticism of Biden on Lemmy. We should all want the most factual articles posted to support well-informed discussions of his actions.
I generally agree with your reasoning. In a ranked choice world, they would likely have a candidate they would back, and support. I think many of us here would be happy to be in that world.
Reminder for everyone to vote every election, and local and state are super important, it’s where you have a chance to get ranked choice in the discussion.
Absolutely! Make note of your election dates and vote in all elections.
You deserve representation.
I agree with this take on r2ozma. They obviously criticized Biden and the DNC relentlessly, but to me it came from a place of frustration from wanting better representation. It’s a good case study in how the 2 party system generally fails us all.
Unfortunately, implementing ranked choice nationwide requires politicians who are responsive to the will of the people.
If we had that, we would already have what we needed ranked choice for.
Yup, yup. Fixing elections is a tall order, but if freakin’ ALASKA can get ranked choice, why not everyone?
Alaska is notoriously anti-establishment so ranked choice is almost a perfect fit for them.
So you’ll be banning people that post only negative news about trump?
The mod already answered a similar question:
We have negative posts on here when Trump as much as farts. If there is anything bad faith it is claiming that there is a balance in positive and negative posts about Trump.
But…. mUh WHaTaBoUT!
Check the mod logs. FAR more posts are removed for arguing WITH leftists than posts BY leftists.
And no one here believes R2O is even a leftist. Dude is a straight up propagandist.
No one claimed that.
So the rule was spamming? They should make that an actual rule then instead of banning people for posting articles supporting their opinion.
That’s not what he said.
I guess it’s a combination of spamming plus one point of view. That still doesn’t really strike me as bannable, as most people will post articles they agree with and hence want to share that way. As long as the posted articles are true, then the only issue I see is the spamming part, which is the only thing I agree could be an issue.
It’s not bannable if you do it once, or even a few times per day. Not even for a few weeks or months on and off. But when you do it 10-20 times per day, every day of the week, for months and months on end, and the shtick is always directed at a particular narrative, and if you bomb comment sections below each thread with combative, dismissive rhetorical punches that show you’re just trying to push a narrative, and if you openly admit you’re doing it to favor one narrative over others, then yeah. That’s pretty classic trolling and definitely bannable. Just take a look at the number of posts R2O has made since they created their account. It’s actually insane to think of the daily rate that entails.
Kind of incredible someone can be banned for posting too many negative stories about Biden (and admitting they like posting them, I guess?) while the mods here ignore users that post comments denying that specific homophobic instances occurred. Happy Pride! 🥳
The mod logs aren’t showing them banned at all, Is there something I’m missing?
Lmao
That’s what you call “bad faith engagement”?
Really?
The shitlib push to get everybody to snort your toxic and dangerous fallacious positivity in unison is starting to get really, really overt.
So…. Someone saying their entire purpose is to share only the negative about Biden wasn’t overt enough?
Seems overt bias is fine with you if it favors your agenda.
I’m willing to bet they just don’t think having a bias is bannable
If I have an issue with the kinds of things someone else is posting, and they haven’t actually broken a rule, I either downvote it, argue with them about it, post my own content that represents my own perspective, or all three. I don’t cheer for that user to be banned simply because I don’t like their bias or agenda
Yeah, I cheer because they’re admittedly here in bad faith to spread bullshit. And they are now muted as a result of it.
The mod even stated that the articles weren’t bullshit and please explain how the posting behaviour amounts to bad faith as defined by wikipedia:
Bad faith (Latin: mala fides) is a sustained form of deception which consists of entertaining or pretending to entertain one set of feelings while acting as if influenced by another.[1] It is associated with hypocrisy, breach of contract, affectation, and lip service.[2] It may involve intentional deceit of others, or self-deception.
Ozma was not being deceptive, pretending feelings or paying lip service. He was honest snd consistent, people just didn’t want to hear it.
Yeah, he was honest about spreading propaganda. That’s why his ass got booted.
If what they were spreading was bullshit, the posts themselves would have been removed for breaking misinformation rules.
If what they were spreading was biden’s own shit so that you had to smell it instead of ignoring it, I think he was doing you a service and you should be thanking him.
I’m not sorry that one of your own was silence for a while. The peace and quiet is going to be memorable to say the least.
The dude admitted to posting in bad faith. So… you really have no argument here at all.
And let’s not pretend that you wouldn’t be the exact same way if you found out a well-known anti-propagandist was banned for a month.
share only the negative about Biden
Pretending that there can be anything positive about liberalism (or it’s myriad servants - like Biden) is outright lying, liberal.
I’d say we’ve been handling you liberals with kid gloves up until now.
Confidently saying something like that clearly illustrates the problem with leftism, lefty. You people have no concept of how nuance works or even what it means.
Confidently saying something like that clearly illustrates the problem with liberalism, liberal. You people have no use for nuance except as something to hide behind.
Dude, your entire post/comment history reads like a cautionary tale on how not to come off as the “ackshually” meme guy.
Side note- calling liberals “liberal” isn’t the insult you think it is.
And lastly… nuance isn’t a thing to hide behind. It’s just… a thing. You see, the world and everthing in it- exists within a grey area called “reality.” This is ironically where a lot of ignorant people stage their ideology of “everthing is either black-and-white/everyone is either with us, or against us” from.
calling liberals “liberal” isn’t the insult you think it is.
You mean… just like the terms fascist, white supremacist and colonialist weren’t insults once? They sure are now, aren’t they?
And lastly… nuance isn’t a thing to hide behind.
Then stop hiding behind it, liberal. Defend your ideology… if you can.
Okay, since you’ve basically admitted to using the term “liberal” as an insult, I’ve nothing to say to you. Because circumventing the “no personal attacks” rule by calling people “liberals” as a derogatory is about as bad faith as it gets.
You’re the conversational equivalent of a Trump supporter.
That is some quality rage-bait lmao. It’s like a caricature of someone endlessly pumping themselves with Fox News, filled with a “you won because we let you” arrogance.
pumping themselves with Fox News
You don’t even know what liberalism is, do you, liberal?
Do tell… before today, has it actually ever occured to you that liberalism happens to be it’s very own ideology?
Did you know that (so-called) “conservatism” isn’t, because, in reality, “conservatism” is just liberalism with extra hysterics?
No? Yes?
Liberalism is it’s own ideology. Conservatism isn’t because it’s just leberalism with extra hysterics.
Like… The conservatives cry more? They’re more emotional? I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.
And I never said that I was a liberal. I just think you sound like a twat.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.
In other words… you need to have your own ideology explained to you, because you have never actually given your ideology a second thought.
You never even chose it.
And I never said that I was a liberal.
And? How does that affect the fact that you’re a liberal, liberal?
“Here is what I think; you might have missed it the other 5-10 times I posted it this week.”
“One, that’s not true, and here is why. Two, it’s weird that you are pushing this so relentlessly when you claim to be on the exact opposite side from the side that it is clearly promoting”
“BAD FAITH shitlib toxic dangerous fallacious snort”
Yeah, I’m sorta startled that admitting to wanting to highlight negative truths over cheering for someone is considered bad faith. Bad faith is misrepresenting an issue, not selectively posting reputable sources. This is one mod decision that I think is wrong and bad.
It’s going to get worse and worse as November comes around. The liberal hysterics is pretty similar to 2016 - be prepared for more of the same.
There are several commenters I would have blocked before r2o, especially if bad faith is the reasoning. But I appreciate the openness and the work put into moderating.
I think the difference is posts vs comments. Lots of bad faith commenters, relatively few posters.
permaban would be better. that guy is, if nothing else, a case for a daily post cap
