I had something similar happen to me years ago in a Toyota minivan. The car stalled and died in traffic, some kind of electrical glitch. I got out to raise the hood. The door closed behind me and it came up with just enough battery to lock itself, with my keys in the ignition and my two babies and quadriplegic husband inside. It was 107° outside. And pre-cellphones. I bolted to the nearby gas station to call 911 and grab something to break a window. Meanwhile hubby tried to coach toddler how to wriggle out of car seat and open door, but straps were too snug. Firehouse was near, and the jammed traffic was all in one direction so they used the opposite side and didn’t take long, and they jimmied the door open quickly. But it was boiling in there. Sat the kids by the road to cool off with water and get checked by paramedics, gave water to husband in car with open doors, and waited for a tow to the gas station so I could lower the ramp and get my husband out. Meanwhile of course we made the traffic even worse, but people weren’t too mad when they saw our plight as they squeezed past.
I’m wondering, did some similar glitch happen here, or do Tesla doors lock every time they shut?
Specifically, it’s that the doors opening mechanisms are powered, and the power was not being applied to open them. There is no exterior mechanical entry option.
Ah, that is stupid.
Tesla model 3 doors do not lock immediately every time they shut. But if you use your cell phone as a key, the default behavior is that they are locked if you walk away with the phone a few yards.
IDK about Tesla but yeah Toyotas like to lock themselves.
Auto-lock doors have been a nightmare in general. I always roll a window down at least far enough to stick an arm through every time I get out of a running car because of the one time forever ago that I left a 90s Pontiac Skylark running, shut the door, and it autolocked with the keys in the ignition and the motor running. I had to get my girlfriend to drive me back to my apartment for the spare key while the car was humming away, and I never forgot that. If I wasn’t close to home, with a helpful ride nearby, and a spare key on hand, I’d have been screwed.
Talk about features that need regulated out. All because suburban whites don’t want to remember to lock the doors as they drive through the black neighborhood so the car locks itself whenever you put it in Drive.
All because suburban whites don’t want to remember to lock the doors as they drive through the black neighborhood so the car locks itself whenever you put it in Drive.
Color discrimination?
Yup, racism. Right out in the open. Upvoted, even.
Every car I’ve driven with keyless ignition (which seems to be the standard now) refuses to lock if it detects the key inside the car, even if you try to do it manually by pressing the lock button, so hopefully this is a solved problem now.
I’ve honestly never heard of self-locking cars doors, that’s a crazy idea.
Our new keyless ignition vehicle wouldn’t fully close the hatch with the doors locked and the keys in the car. It would go down half way and play the “I can’t close” noise.
Last couple cars I’ve had that’s been a setting you can change… I set mine to lock when the car moves at more than a few mph, the other options seemed like too high a chance to cause an accidental lockout to me
I’m glad that had a happy ending and sorry that happen. Autolock is so dangerous.
Most cars I’ve used with it won’t lock until you put it in drive or start moving at a certain speed; I assume that’s because of incidents like this one.
Might be the doors are fail shut if anything happens… But that seems like the worst design ever.
Come to think of it, it’s basic design to designate features as fail closed/fail open on loss of power in an emergency, and you go with what’s inherently safe. It appears Tesla did not consider basic safety design. To no one’s surprise.
I design process control equipment for a living and you are 100% correct. When the controller/PLC dies or the power goes out everything goes to a safe state that protects the human. Big part of the design decisions.
I’ve unfortunately been working on process control strategies for almost a year now on new and novel applications for my company, so I’ve been intimately familiar with this. If it isn’t obvious, this isn’t my favorite professional area of interest hahaha.
Designating fail open and fail closed valves is so intrinsic to what I’ve been doing that I can’t imagine someone designing a car control system and not thinking about that at all.
I designed a quencher system that failed closed, no water flowing, during outages once. Granted I was an intern but still not my proudest moment.
It’s weird now as my employer is slowing moving into motion control tech for waste. Seeing the changes like having to really think about hardwired limit switches and safety relays. Chemical world I feel is easier.
We all make mistakes. I once forgot to include gravity in a pressure drop calculation for a 100 ft vertical pipe as part of a steam drum system. I had to send an awkward email revising the design pressure I previously communicated out.
But hey, if we were perfect, we wouldn’t need peer review.
I have a little bit of experience with limit switches, but that’s really interesting. It certainly seems like an unusual system. I’m a lot more familiar with safety relays.
Imagine there is a process that makes a gas that is too hot. The solution is to spray the gas outlet with water. That’s a quencher. The PLC controls the amount the water valve is open or rather how much to close it. If the PLC dies the valve should open up as much as possible and blast water. It is better to waste water instead of risking hot gas going through ducting systems that can’t handle it.
My mistake was putting failed closed valves in the system. If there was a power outage or a dead PLC no water would have cooled the gas. And presumably the ducting would have melted and there would have been fires.
Like I said my most embarrassing mistake. At least we caught it before shipment.
It happens! The important part is review and learning from the mistakes.
You’re assuming they didn’t consider it, vs having considered it and thought that its more important to protect property than peoples’ lives. Again, to no one’s surprise.
The car’s owner, Renee Sanchez, was taking her granddaughter to the zoo, but after loading the child in the Model Y, she closed the door and wasn’t able to open it again. “My phone key wouldn’t open it,” Sanchez said in an interview with Arizona’s Family. “My car key wouldn’t open it.” She called emergency services, and firefighters were dispatched to help.
Just so nobody thinks someone left a kid in the car and then went into a store or something. Tesla should be paying for the broken window repair at the very least.
Also, this is similar to a use case that Telsa likes to promote. They allow you to leave the climate on while the car is locked.
This makes me never want to trust the dog and camp modes they advertise.
In this specific example, I believe the driver buckled the child, closed the door, then was unable to open any door before starting the vehicle. Is it possible to either start the vehicle or at least turn on the climate control from outside? If not, this was a horribly dangerous situation.
Yeah, this wasn’t even intentional. The car just shit out while she was getting the car situated. Very scary.
Not without the 12V. I’m pretty sure most of the internal electronics are dependent on that working. There’s an access port so you can “jump” the 12V with another car, which I think would then allow you to open the door though.
I think I just saw an article saying that dog mode is currently broken lol
According to a report from Arizona’s Family:
The 12-volt battery that powers the car’s electronics died without warning.
Tesla drivers are supposed to receive three warnings before that happens, but the Tesla service department confirmed that Sanchez didn’t receive any warnings.
Lead acid batteries are notoriously hard to predict when they will fail. Other OEMs also fail at this often.
Tesla upgraded to lithium 12V batts some time ago, which are much more predictable and last 2-3x longer.
What? No they aren’t. They almost always fail on a curve of power and voltage loss.
Also, I didn’t look it up, but I’d be very surprised if the model Y tesla didn’t require (suggest and oem?) an AGM battery. It’s still lead, but due to how they’re made they can’t get a dead short in them like older regular lead acid batteries can once they get old, although it still isn’t very common for it to happen.
Yes they are. I used to test them for a living. It’s just a best guess.
No they aren’t. They degrade before they fail. If tesla wanted to provide a warning of a failing battery that pretty much always worked it could have wired in a load test and went off voltage drop under a heavier load.
Testing if batteries are good or bad does not qualify a person to chart out battery degradation.
No they aren’t.
Yes. They are. If they weren’t, no one would have these problems. But they all do. I know everyone likes to pour over them with a microscope and drool over their flaws because they’re Tesla, but many of the issues commonly attributed to them are common with all other OEMs, you just have a bunch of armchair engineers who don’t know WTF they’re talking about.
They degrade before they fail.
No shit
If tesla wanted to provide a warning of a failing battery that pretty much always worked it could have wired in a load test and went off voltage drop under a heavier load.
Once again, I did this for a living, for a decade. We would constantly have cars with failed batteries, we would bring them in, charge them up, test them, they would pass, we’d send them on their way, and they would fail again, and come back for replacement. Our load tests also tested the alternator.
I worked on BMWs for years and they would regularly come in with the same problem, with no warning, even though they had a similar detection algorithm that mostly worked.
Once again, I did this for a living, for a decade. We would constantly have cars with failed batteries, we would bring them in, charge them up, test them, they would pass, we’d send them on their way, and they would fail again
I also test batteries and this just looks like you all didn’t test them well. Like you skipped the capacity test because it takes being hooked up for a long time instead of the test that takes 20 seconds to do.
What other oem hides the mechanical latch?
What makes you think I was referring to the latch?
You said other manufacturers fail at “this” referring to the 12v battery dying, but the context here is a child being trapped in a car when that battery fails. If the 12v battery fails on any other car you simply pull the handle and the door opens.
I was referring specifically to the failure to detect a dying 12V battery.
Ok fine, what other manufacturer traps someone inside when the battery fails?
You mentioned the hidden latch on another thread. Should I bring my question over there instead?
“Should I bring my question over there instead?”
That’s usually what people do so conversations can actually be followed and come in a logical order…
Ok fine, what other manufacturer traps someone inside when the battery fails?
I don’t know. I don’t understand why you’re asking me this.
you’re up and down this post defending Tesla’s boneheaded decisions.
I am both critical and defensive of Tesla, depending on the topic of discussion. It’s called being objective.
Even if she did receive warnings, she’s a grandmother who easily could miss one of the many messages on the car. It’s just bad design.
These cars all have manual backups.
The question is how easy is it to use?
Only takes about a half second Google search to find out, it’s literally a handle right on the door. Just above the window switches. It’s not hidden, obfuscated, covered, or even in a weird spot
It was a fucking toddler trapped in the car you moron.
It couldn’t be opened manually from the outside.
Lets ask the dead billionaire
She died of stupid, the release is literally right on the door. It’s not hidden, obfuscated, covered, or in any way shape or form difficult to use. Just another idiot that didn’t bother learning what all the controls on their new card did.
That being said, even with a manual release they most likely would have died anyway. As once your car is in the water unless you’re able to open the door basically instantaneously upon hitting the water you’re going to find that the door is impossible to open as the weight of the water will prevent it until such time as the car has filled with water to equalize the pressure. Generally speaking people that survive cars falling into water were able to get the window open, or just break it entirely. The door is almost never the Escape Route as it will not allow itself to be opened due to the difference in pressure
Was going to tell you that she didn’t die in a model 3 but you found out yourself!
where’s the manual door release?
Read the article
Inside the car (sadly). No manual release on the outside.
im as stupid as a baby, i still actually meant the inside but OFC the baby can’t figure that out.
On the door
Where’s the door?
If you can’t find the door on a car, you’re too far gone to help.
But there is babby in crar. How girl get pragnent?
Did the batter die from extreme heat or due to the driver failing to charge the vehicle promptly?
Wrong battery. You’re thinking the high-voltage EV battery, but in this case, it was the 12V lead-acid accessory battery that died. Normally, that would be charged from the high voltage battery, if the car was running.
In this case, it might just have been bad luck with a worn-out battery.
Damn… thanks for the explanation!
There was a time I wanted a Tesla, but I don’t anymore. This is just another reason why.
Does Tesla care about making a “neat thing” or do they care about making “a car that can drive me places”. The doors clearly show they prioritize making a “neat thing”, but I want a reliable car.
Opening and closing doors was a solved problem. Somehow Tesla made it worse.
I understand wanting a Tesla maybe 5-6 years ago when they were a little ahead of the competition and the only ones with a big touch screen etc. and people didn’t understand that “self driving” is just a marketing term. And of course Musk hadn’t fully revealed his political agenda.
Not nowadays? Almost all EV are better than Tesla and at the very least buying one doesn’t line the pocket books of a Nazi.
Tesla isn’t a car… It’s an EXPERIENCE!!!
(/s just in case it isn’t obvious enough)
Does Tesla care about making a “neat thing” or do they care about making “a car that can drive me places”
Neither. Care about making money.
One thing about Musk, I think he does care more about making a thing. Money is involved; but mostly because it’s necessary to make the thing.
It’s just that the things he wants to make are increasingly stupid and childish.
I think at this point Tesla is more about stockholders than it is Musk.
Boy you would think that, but it is clearly not the case. At least not primarily.
Although it’s definitely more of a factor than his other companies.
In summary, Tesla the company cares about not going bankrupt. Edge they have been walking on since inception. Musk on the other hand cares about money and being on TV non-stop because he’s a narcissist asshole. Problem is, those two have colliding interest because Musk is majority holder now and Tesla has to make what he says in his drug induced and poorly educated rambles. He wasn’t a majority holder for a while thanks to 42.0B$ fuck yea deal with then soon to be announced X but at the time Twitter. Now stock holders voted to give him 40B$ bonus to keep him in “leading role”.
So in short it’s a shitstorm. Stupid car that had a great idea but was ruined by narcissistic manchild. Car which you can only repair in authorized service centers by the way which is something no one talks about. Car that eats away your tires and some people report having to replace tires every six months. And on top of that, you have no spare tire to begin with. That means you run over a nail, tow truck for you it is.
Oh and I haven’t said anything about share holders because they are plain old idiots. Tesla is not paying dividends and never planned to do so. So people buy stocks to have them? I don’t know some sort of mystery. And even then, they buy stocks, then Musk hypes them up a bit, sells quintillion shares and bails out, which is why he’s not allowed to talk about Tesla without babysitter. So share holders buy stocks, lose money and cheer for Musk.
Same, but cars in general now. I used to look forward to driving, but now I’m sick of it. Biking and ebikes have made going places fun again :)
Why not just open the door with the key like every car ever
It’s so obvious, then again I think there’s some cars out there without even a metal key for the engine. So dumb.
My car (Citroën) has a contact less key, I don’t have to get it out of my pocket and the car automatically opens.
But it still includes a small physical key to open the car when the battery (of the car or key) is dead.
The metal key is attached to the contactless key or is it a seperate device?
It’s usually stored inside the key fob.
I’d love to see a crank on EVs to power the low voltage stuff in emergencies. How many amps does the car startup take? 15A? Maybe bicycle pedals.
Or just have manual doors and locks with an electric actuator if you really want those “smart” features.
Have your manual doors, peasant, but I will not debase myself in such a fashion.
pfft, ok. If the rich want to cook themselves, all the easier to eat.
Yabba dabba dooooo
So we would have come full circle. That actually has a retro appeal to it that it could catch on!
Failsafe.
Fail Safe.
Fail Open.
Elon is why we need to write safety regulations. He’s the kind of guy who would put sawdust in your food and call it innovation.
Agree on your overall sentiment, though I’d say it is a bit more complicated than that for car doors. You don’t want it to fail and come open while moving, for example, especially if the car is coming to a stop and inertia forces the doors fully open. That Boeing door failed open and it was not very safe.
Vehicle doors should be fail functional rather than open to fail safe. As in designed to be very unlikely to fail and/or still functional even if one or several components do fail.
Two options:
- your statement comes off a bit ignorant - a failsafe would just pop the latch (and up and down motion) and wouldn’t be impacted by braking forces (front and back motion)
- you weren’t explicitly saying bad things about Elon Musk
But the general idea of things still working despite failure is the essence of what the OP was saying. People seem to not like comments that refine what others say (I have plenty of experience there), they prefer comments that either correct or blatantly support the parent comment. I don’t get it, but whatever.
For the fail-safe bit, if the latching system fails to an unlatched position, then the inertia of the door itself could cause it to open on braking and turns (or if someone leans on it or bumps it), since nothing else would be holding it in place.
Obligatory fuck Elon Musk lol.
It’s not generally as bad here as it is on Reddit. I still see the occasional comments that make me wonder if their author has any reading comprehension skills, but Reddit seemed to have representation from those kinds of posters in most comment threads. Even on the topics where Lemmy has general biases for, comments can still go off the beaten trail without getting crucified.
Though with the smaller sample size of voters, I think Lemmy might see more cases where a comment initially goes one way and then swings the other way, which seems to be the case with my comment above, at least for now (and is part of the reason why I try to refrain from ever commenting on the votes, but usually there’s also a spicy or bolder part of my comment where I’m not as surprised if it goes negative).
Sure, for the electrical part. But the door as a whole should Fail Open. You can pull over with an open door. You should not have to break the door to escape after a failure.
I think the point, though, is there should be a redundant system to handle failures, like a mechanical-only door handle.
Another example: your dashboard touchscreen fails, there should still be a button to turn on the AC. Or off. Whatever makes this analogous to the safety concern about doors.
Yes, I agree with that.
I’d say it is a bit more complicated than that for car doors.
Car doors work fine on every car but a Tesla. They aren’t some new technology invented by Tesla where design flaws like this are understandable. Tesla just does things so badly that they invent brand new dangers that only exist with their vehicles.
You don’t want it to fail and come open
That isn’t what “fail open” means. It doesn’t mean that the moment the battery dies all the doors fly open. It means that when the battery dies the doors aren’t latched shut like a bank safe.
At a minimum, the key should offer a way to open the car from the outside when the battery is dead. It’s completely asinine to put the only emergency latch on the inside of the car where you can’t use it, especially since it is hidden so deep most people can’t find it without the manual.
What’s controversial or unpopular about what I said?
You’re giving Elon Musk’s awful cars the benefit of a doubt by pretending that this isn’t a completely reckless design flaw that should never have existed in the first place, and you are deliberately misinterpreting what “fail open” means to make it sound like a ridiculous solution instead of the industry safety best practice that it actually is.
Also, you’re complaining about downvotes, so expect even more now I guess.
Car doors that aren’t on teslas don’t fail open, they are reliable enough that I can’t think of hearing about any failures that don’t involve a collision and deforming of the door (in which case it’s a fail closed and they use the jaws of life to get people out, or another door).
An electronic latch is either engaged or it isn’t. Fail open would mean that in the absence of an electronic signal saying it should be closed, the latch will default to not being engaged, which would mean there’s nothing holding the door closed if another force acts on it.
Don’t assume any benefit of the doubt about Tesla’s. I made no comment one way or another about what I think of their doors vs other doors. For the record, I agree completely that they fucked up this part of the design. The purpose of my comment was to say that taking that design and adding “fail open” to it won’t fix it. Fail open and fail closed both have problems with an electronic latch and the only way to fix it without causing other big problems is to design it in a way that still functions as a door that can be open or latched closed whether or not the electronic part of the latch is working.
And I’m “deliberately misinterpreting” what fail open means? I’m having trouble understanding how it can mean anything other than how I’m interpreting it, even with your clarification, given the disagreement about other car doors failing open. Maybe it’s a misnomer that I’m misinterpreting but why are you assuming I’m doing this in bad faith?
The downvotes themselves don’t matter, I asked because I wanted to know the reasoning behind them, well aware that bringing them up at all will probably result in more of them.
Now imagine this happens in a remote area with no cell coverage. In Arizona those are a thing too.
In the middle of nowhere, maybe. But I’ve been on several road trips across the state and had service the entire way, mostly LTE with a few spots of 3G here and there. As long as you’re near the highway or a town, you’ll get service.
There are giant swaths of area with no coverage, especially in the mountains of arizona, including the freeways and especially highways. The entire western US can be spotty with signal out in the great wide open. It isn’t until the Midwest and more east that one should largely not worry about signal coverage anymore.
No need for remoteness. Imagine you drive into water or battery catches fire. You aren’t opening those doors.
There is a manual release on the inside … So yes you are.
No you are not. People panic and default to most common behavior, this is why emergency exercises are a thing. In other words, the hidden manual release somewhere in the car that was never used is not going to be used in the moment of panic. You won’t even remember it exists.
Also, that’s only on some cars and only in the front. None on the back seat.
It is not hidden, covered, obfuscated, or even in a weird location. It’s literally sitting right on the door handle. Also even with a standard 1990 car with fully manual doors you are not going to be escaping out the doors if your car falls into water. The pressure differential of the water pushing against your door prevents you from opening it until the entire inside of the car has filled with water, MythBusters did a whole episode on this back in the day if you want to go find that for the full story. But the tldr is that once your car is in the water you’re only Escape options are to break the window, get the window rolled down, or wait until the entire car has filled with water and the pressure equalizes
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
Now imagine you are under the ocean talking to Aquaman.
Easy enough to get out, if you have a couple braincells to rub together. The manual release is not hidden, covered, obfuscated, or even in a weird location. It’s literally right on the door handle
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
I assume Arizona has rocks and bricks and stuff lying around somewhere
Luckily not even the Cybertruck is immune to those
Yes. You go out to grab a rock, go back in and smash the windows. Or keep one tactical door opening rock beneath the seat.
beneath the seat
For the toddler to use?
There is a mechanical door release if you’re trapped inside. To get in from outside obviously needs the vehicle to unlock, so it has to be jump started.
Even if there was some kind of back-up mechanical lock I can’t see anyone carrying around a key only for this specific eventuality. A glass breaker key-ring might be the best option — along with understanding how to use these emergency features in case you need them. A glass breaker might also save you in a fire or ending up underwater.
That’s the fun part. They’ve made it so the windows don’t break now either. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6tnEDH1HfD0
That is fun, I didn’t know that was a thing. I imagine that roll-overs are more common than submersion in water, but even so, that doesn’t sound like a great trade-off. Even in a crash, being able to quickly jump out the window is good — especially if the vehicle is on fire.
These two remind me of the early Apple fanboys, completely talking around all the bad parts and focusing only on perceived good parts. Except, here, they’re fan-ing on a decision that was made a long time ago (using tempered glass on side windows) for exactly the reason they state is ‘bad’–it explodes into a bunch of non-sharp shards. This decision was made, and agreed upon by auto manufacturers, to prevent people getting stuck in cars on fire. Internal mechanical releases do nothing when the person inside is unconscious or is a toddler, as is in this case.
Mechanical release is hidden and not commonly used, or if ever. In moments of utter panic people will not even remember it exists, let alone use it.
The front ones don’t seem to be hidden, but yeah - if they’re not meant to be used regularly, people won’t remember them in an emergency. I guess the rear ones are hidden because they probably bypass child-locks.
I don’t know how child-locks work on mechanical door latches. If the vehicle locks when in motion and the child-locks are on I don’t think there are emergency releases on most vehicles? The only ways out would be to get into the front cabin, break the windows, or find the internal boot release.
To get in from outside obviously needs the vehicle to unlock, so it has to be jump started.
and how do you get to the battery to do that if you can’t get inside?
There’s a panel that can be popped out to open the hood with a 12V power supply: https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-34181E3A-B4A7-4658-906A-38C6647B5664.html
Well at least there’s a way in… Lot’s of trouble could be save by simply having a mechanical key.
Yeah, My volt battery is in the floor of the trunk. If the battery on the volt dies you can’t open the trunk easily. Physical locks in the doors are no problem but they didn’t put a keyhole on the damn trunk.
You can pop the hood and access the jump terminals and then pop the trunk. You can also crawl into the back hatch from inside pull a panel off and pop the trunk.
Wish Version Iron Man:
"Really? Do you think its 2010 again?
This is the fuuuuuuttttuuurrreeee!!!"
snorts Ketamine and twirls out the door
The headline rambles a little bit, and by the time I got to “, died”, I thought the toddler was dead.
“Arizona toddler rescued…” I dont think a dead child can be rescued anymore
It becomes a repatriation.
The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
Is it possible to learn this power? 🤔
“Arizona toddler…died”
Brian Regan once equipped that he had taken a speed-reading course. “Since then, I can read 2000 words per minute. But…my comprehension’s plummeted.”
That’s no accident.
Really interesting design decision. Was the main battery also dead? I’m guessing not. There’s a step-down converter under the rear seat that outputs 12-16 volts, Tesla could probably have fairly easily set the car up to power the doors from that when the auxiliary 12V battery dies.
Probably would still need the 12V battery to have enough charge to close the connection to the high voltage battery that would power the step down converter.
But yeah it seems dumb to me that most EVs don’t keep the 12V battery topped up from the high voltage battery somehow while the car is parked, but I’m not an electrical engineer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
There really shouldn’t need to be a 12V battery at all. Stepping the voltage down isn’t that complicated, but the supply chain for the necessary parts aren’t there for the car industry.
Plus, it’d be really nice if everything could run off a 48V line instead of 12V. The wires can be thinner due to less current draw. Getting that to work across all the electronics for everything is a whole separate level, though.
There really shouldn’t need to be a 12V battery at all
I think it’s mainly there just to be able to control the circuit that cuts power to the high voltage battery off while the car is parked for safety reasons.
You don’t want to fully drain the main battery as it would do severe damage to it and most of the 12v system has a phantom draw of power so to keep the main battery from running out they have a separate one
Compared to what the main batt can provide, there’s barely any draw from the other electronics.
That’s not the point the fact is that there is some dumbass that probably will let it sit at 0% and kill the battery
Battery management electronics don’t let you drain lithium batteries to 0%. It’s a severe design flaw if it does.
