Usenet was the best.
Still is 😉
I don’t really know. For text based discussion, I prefer something like Lemmy, also due to better moderation tools etc. It’s a cool early thread-based discussion tool, but mostly outdated.
Unfortunately, there is absolutely zero other use for it, and nobody should ever bother, it’s wasted time.
😁there are now binary files to be found there as well 😉
No, there is nothing, and any investigation by copyright holders wouldn’t lead to anything. Trying to get anything out of usenet today is futile.
I totally agree. Corporate interests and rampant consumerism have ruined the majority of the internet.
Glad we still have refuges like lemmy though to take solace in. Proportionally we’re a smaller part, but absolutely I’d say we’re about the same or larger than in the 2000s.
we’re a smaller part
Quality trumps quantity anytime.
Oh absolutely. I exclusively use Lemmy now for social media, my online experience is absolutely amazing as a result. My love for the internet has returned
Betteridge’s law of headlines. Any headline that ends with a question the answer is always no.
How can we go back? We’re already on the way back. It’s called the Fediverse.
The Fediverse is a bit more like the old USENET days in some regards, but ultimately if it ever becomes more popular the same assholes that ruin other online experiences will also wind up here.
What made the Internet more exciting 30 years ago was that it was mostly comprised of the well educated and dedicated hobbyists, who had it in their best interest to generally keep things decent. We didn’t have the uber-lock-in of a handful of massive companies running everything.
It’s all Eternal September. There’s no going back at this point — any new medium that becomes popular will attract the same forces making the current Internet worse.
Exactly.
I’m interested in distributed applications (think BitTorrent, not ActivityPub), and my primary concern here is filtering. I want to be able to only see content from people I trust and people they trust (and so on), and if I do that well, I won’t have to see a ton of crap. That’s how regular relationships work, and I’d like to try my hand at it with anonymous relationships. Think something like Web of Trust, but adjusted for larger networks of people.
That sounds awesome and I’d love to use it.
Same. Unfortunately, it’s nowhere near done yet. 😅
The Fediverse by design prevents this, while the internet of the old age had little if any guardrails against this specially since the platforms never really federated with another.
Did forum sites even federate? One forum sites would be dead and the next would have more activity. But what if the other forum with less activity was the one you wanted to use? The old internet was a good start but there’s a reason why it’s dominated by Instagram and Facebook, while email, you can use mostly any provider and not feel like you’re left out.
I help pay for my instance to operate, and it’s a cost I’m happy to help shoulder.
Us instance admins appreciate it I promise
How is it running you a month?
Are you asking how much I donate per month?
Same, its on my best pi. 🥧
It’s not unless you are operating your own instance.
The fediverse is just a barnacle on the larger Internet at this point. It has to become more - we need to make our own web
Ehhhh, the OG internet connected better because all nodes were well connected. The Fediverse is a series of single servers that can’t even sync all data across themselves. It’s cute, but it’s post-it notes on strings atm
I wonder if there’s a more efficient way to have things sync in blocks or something. I honestly understand very little about server architecture, much less decentralized social network architecture. Maybe having a smaller number of “centralized” (community-run, redundant, independent) nodes distributing blocks of federated data to take load off the actual instance servers that would only need to upload bulk data to fewer places?
Maybe this isn’t very different from how it already operates. Fuck if I know.
No. The fediverse is just more of the same mindless gargling and regurgitation of mainstream media excrement that the internet has become, but federated.
It lacks the creativity, originality, experimentation, wonder, sheer life of the old internet.
It’s just as dead, enshittified, and riddled with misinformation bots as everything else.
Step up!
Create!
Whatever cool stuff someone posted on a forum 10-15 years ago can be found on the Fediverse, possibly even in better quality because people know how the internet works overall more then they did back then and we’re not all still using Windows XP. Now if you’re talking about the era of flash games, you shouldd try html5 games.
On the Fediverse you have the desk client, and web clients. If the fediverse isn’t creative you wouldn’t have a Misskey next to Maastodon which is it’s own thing all together not just another fork of Mastodon.
Can y make these claims make sense to me based on this logic I provided here.
My reading is that it’s not necessarily a problem with the platforms but society at large.
One example you mentioned: yes, html5 games (and just downloadable itch/steam games) exist and they fill the gap left by Flash games from a gameplay perspective maybe.
But the mainstream appeal of Flash games and animations was different to what we have now. The social phenomenon of people randomly hacking together terrible flash games isn’t the same as the current tiny indie game phenomenon. I feel like the old ones were a bigger piece of the average person’s internet usage than the new one (the average person’s internet usage being 5% LLM 5% web 5% email 25% gaming 30% video and 30% doomscrolling or something like that idk)
I’m struggling to put into words what I mean by this, my comment sounds really vague when I reread it. The specific creative outlet that Flash gave people is not equivalent to what we have now, and the specific entertainment experience of browsing and playing Flash games is different from the experience of scrolling through itch. Am I making more sense?
Like of course the different technologies are different, but it’s where it fits into our lives that it’s really different imo. Hell, we could say this about Flash itself for the last few years before it was discontinued. Just the two thoughts of Newgrounds in 2006 vs Newgrounds in 2016 and how they fit into the internet ecosystem and internet culture are enough to see the difference.
Why are you here if it’s so bad?
Looked like the least worst alternative to reddit (which was the least worst replacement for what the internet used to be before reddit, and facebook, and the like, killed it).
Turns out it’s mostly reddit reposts (often by bots, which is ironic since the originals were also reddit reposts posted by bots) and US politics garbage, and even more susceptible than Reddit to power hungry mods and echo chambers.
I guess I’m just addicted to doomscrolling. Which is almost as depressing as the fact that this inane crumb of utterly useless and purposeless garbage is by far the least worst furuncle in the rotting bot infested corpse of the internet.
and even more susceptible than Reddit to power hungry mods and echo chambers.
It’s not, because you can easily get around bans. You can go to a different instance and resubscribe to all the same communities.
That doesn’t prevent power hungry mods from modding hundreds of communities, or mods or admins from enshittifying the most popular communities (or whole instances) with absurd rules or misinformation bots, or any other of the abuses that were rampant on reddit and even more rampant here… sure, the users can migrate to some other community or instance, but most won’t (and migrating instances is significantly more work than simply unsubscribing from one subreddit and subscribing to another).
And here I thought I was being elitist as a new member. I wonder what IRC is like these days. Discord is still cool with just certain friends in a server.
Yep we have different lemmy/mastodon/etc… instances talking with one another. Anyone can set up something like activityhub. Its a fun place in my opinion!
Btw how do we stand on just blatantly copying and reposting material from reddit? I missed the announcement talking about that.
enjoy the mainstream memes and discussion, but avoid the algorithmic content slop from them. That’s how I see the fediverse. It’s a win in my book.
We would be better than ever, if not for the normification.
what exactly does that mean?
Normification is a facet of our undemocratic capitalism. As you see yourself as a consumer of the internet and not a citizen, you mostly assume that a thing being
- popular
- monetizable
- and convenient
is always preferable.
So the internet continues to have a huge potential to host many cool places, but
- they can’t reach users that might be interested
- gaining support from small donations is difficult
- and they can’t integrate a complete set of features, accessibility, design and content moderation.
If you ask an average internet user about these places, it’s a common response to say they’re weird as in not normal. If you dig a bit for what they mean, it’s usually the above. Nobody is there, it can’t make money and it doesn’t have all the things.
It’s what happened to the internet. Devices were dumbed down to make the internet accessible for everyone. Now the “normies” are also on the internet, whereas in the past they’d belittle you for spending time on the computer.
In time, the Fediverse will also be easily accessible. And where there are normies, you’ll find corporate enshittification.
I’m not sure that categorizing people as “normies” is a great idea. nor is it a way to entice new people and voices to join and learn how to use the fediverse so that it can become a more reliable place.
i think blaming enshittification on “normies” is a lot easier than holding greedy corporations accountable for directly making everything worse. it’s surely easier, but the real issue remains unchecked.
if anything, it’s a good thing that more people are learning how much better the fediverse is. it helps the fediverse get stronger, not weaker.
“us” vs “them” is not a mindset that will produce anything except cesspools of toxicity. at least imho.
I didn’t coin the term and I too believe it’s a huge generalization. However, “simpler” people are more susceptible to ads. The “normies” in question are the ones that don’t use adblockers, they believe ads are normal and they believe ads don’t affect them. Corporations capitalize on that. Better tech education would definitely help take some power away from corporations.
Edit: even now you’ll find people that use Lemmy apps that have ads. The bigger the user base, the more greedy companies will find ways of exploiting the Fediverse.
I was a normie once. I too fell for misinformation in the past. If it wasn’t for the freely available information on the internet, I wouldn’t be here today.
You went ahead and actually gathered the correct information. This is not what the “normies” in question do. Look, I didn’t coin the term nor do I approve of the use of this term. I just wanted to explain what the other person meant with “normification”.
Better tech education would definitely help take some power away from corporations
If you truly believe that, then vilifying more “simple” and less tech-savvy individuals is not the way to do it. Don’t be angry that they click on ads. Be angry that they’ve been poisoned to think that behavior is normal on the internet.
Education is absolutely possible for those new to things like the fediverse. But education doesn’t work when you use those labels for people. It widens the gap, it doesn’t close it.
blaming enshittification on “normies”
What’s really annoying is it’s straight out of the corpo playbook.
“We’re not responsible for ______, you are because you didn’t do enough ________”.
The most blatant is “global warming” and “ate too much meat/didn’t recycle enough/made poor choices with your car” and so on.
It’d be nice if people would stop trying to blame the worst offenses being perpetuated on people by billionaires and their pet corporations on personal choices, because it’s hot liquid bullshit.
Internet? You mean the WiFi /s
No I mean the modem on my hard drive not the wifi.
normies
Honestly some normies would help us talk about something different than US politics, linux and being trans femboys. Honestly, we’d have some diversity in content. I’d like that.
I think it would make discussions about US politics even worse. But I agree with the rest. I personally would also like to have a more broad user base. That’d definitely spark more interesting discussions. Lemmy is a very weird echo chamber right now. It’s just very important that no one in the Fediverse starts to capitalize on them. That’d be the moment enshittification starts. And that will happen once the mainstream people come pouring in because greed will always corrupt the ones who have some form of power. Someone will take advantage of this.
We could have separate instances for the normies and for the femboy linux users. And then, everybody can choose which instances to block/follow.
In time, the Fediverse will also be easily accessible. And where there are normies, you’ll find corporate enshittification.
No, because corporations cannot buy the Fediverse.
Couldn’t they “convince” instance admins to include ads? Couldn’t they flood communities with influencers? Couldn’t they promote Lemmy apps that have ads?
You are severely underestimating the criminal energy and creativity of these corporations.
Edit: reddit turned to shit way before the platform itself was up for sale. No need to buy the platform, bots and influencers are enough.
Couldn’t they “convince” instance admins to include ads?
Yes. One at a time. But the cannot “buy Lemmy” which is what a CEO would want to do.
Is this some kind of attack on certain minority groups or am I over thinking this comment? I googled what normification meant and the results gave me some bad vibes regarding this comments direction.
It’s not an attack on certain minority groups unless you consider “normal average person” a minority group.
It’s just a little bit of the old nerd superiority complex leaking out with a new word attached to it.
needs enshitfication vaccination, if we can make it
So far we’re doing a great job at keeping profits out of the equation. Let’s see if it lasts.
2 ways to go back:
-
Corporations become less greedy.
-
Consumers and businesses stop tolerating abuse and open themselves up to new options.
Neither one seems likely. If it were we simply wouldn’t be here in the first place.
A few of us still remembers option 3) Regulation And also 4) Properly working anti-trust laws.
Those are both the same, and would fall under #2.
You are conflating Consumers with Citizens, a classic pitfall of modern neoliberal democracies.
Just because people willingly Consume a Product does not mean they think The Product is good or even that it should exist at all. Neoliberalism is unable to acknowledge that, because Everything is a Market and the Market is Infallible.
In reality, the game theory is such that individuals may not have the means to get out of the local minimum they found themselves stuck in. Prisoner’s dilemma and all that. That’s what representative democracy is supposed to solve, when it isn’t captured by ideology and corporate interests.
You are conflating Consumers with Citizens
I’m actually not, and my word choice was intentional. If you’re not consuming these goods then you hold no leverage, and probably don’t care.
Do you not consume a single Google/Meta/Microsoft product or do you not care about their abhorrent business practices?
Yes and no.
I don’t understand.
Then you’re knowingly engaging in the consumption of abusive products? Do you not see how you have literally no leverage whatsoever as a consumer?
I’d argue there’s enough difference there to flag them separately. The original number two is more about personal responsibility; choose a different retailer, go to a different place, etc. Voting with your wallet so to speak.
Government regulation, while it’s still about people pushing back against companies, with the state of most western governments at the moment you can’t assume they will automatically have the public’s back. So there’s a tie in to the personal responsibility aspect by electing representatives who represent your interests, but given that’s not always feasible (either because not enough people share that view to get someone elected or because there isn’t a suitable candidate available to support) I would argue it’s distinct enough to warrant its own category.
Regulations and anti trust laws would both fall under a government intervention category though I think.
It isn’t just corporations that have ruined everything, it’s spammers and scammers and cybercriminals too. Searching any topic these days is a crapshoot, with a high likelihood of falling into a spammer’s tarpit.
To me it feels like the internet is evolving into a virtual Dark Forest. We float around in these little bubbles of sanity, hiding amid a yawning expanse of seething chaos.
im doing 2 actually.
That’s great but it takes more than 1, or even 1M people. It has to be enough people that anti-consumer shitfuckery is no longer profitable.
I’ve said before and I’ll say again. I would use the option on amazon for shipping that says “let your employees pee”. I get my package 2-3 days later. Oh well. I don’t give a shit. I’d rather normalize companies treating people like people. And if I get my limited edition pez dispenser 3 days later, so be it.
Not like it’s an oxygen tank.
History tells us there’s also a release valve of a swift brick to the side of the head, one brick per billionaire.
It sounds messier than paying taxes, to me. But I’m not a billionaire, so I can’t say I understand their motives.
1 can be solved with regulation or nationalization. Services online should be public services. Like school, police, roads. You can still have private alternatives too.
-
Archive the entire thing and start over.
Free hosting, for everyone, without ads.
Ut-oh.
(But seriously, while it wasn’t free, having an account with an ISP used to come with 10 MB of personal webspace without ads or anything. That’s something you never really see these days.)
Yeah you can host your own blog on the fediverse. I’ve started similar attempts, in fact, such as !aniki_blog@feddit.org . I intend to expand it, but it takes time getting used to this type of personal web space.
Woof. I forgot that used to be a thing. I’m pretty sure I had a phonebook those days.
Many ISPs still give an email address.
These days with how tied to your identity email is, using an ISP provided email is like self-imposed vendor lock-in though. A friend who uses an ISP provided email just switched ISPs and it caused havoc - bank logins, power company logins, etc
The ISP I’m with allows you to keep the email address indefinitely. But I’m sure there are many ISPs who don’t do that.
That seems unusually mature and consumer-oriented for an ISP
Not really needed with dynamic DNS able to point back to a web server on your own network.
There’s a lot to be said for “http://yourISP.com/~username” being available 24/7 at no particular effort to you.
Alternately, what’d be really neat would be an easy way to mostly completely do a webpage setup for someone using the free hosting options that do exist.
Like, a tool that makes handling deploying something to Github Pages or Cloudflare Pages or whomever else offers basically free web hosting that isn’t nerdy to the point that you need a 6,000 word document to explain the steps you’d have to take to get a webpage from a HTML editor to being actually hosted.
Or, IDK, maybe going back for ye old domain.com/~username/ web hosting could be an interesting project to take on, since I’m sure handling file uploads like that should be trivial (lots and loooots of ways to do that.). Just have to not end up going Straight To Jail offering hosting for people, I suppose.
How did we get here
Money!
can we go back?
No!
I disagree with the idea that the internet is worse than it used to be. Back in the day, you went into a forum and people were MEAN for no particular reason. People do that now over politics more than anything. Before, that’s just how people were.
Yeah, now you get mean people, a drive-by malware installer, AI generated ads, and 4mb of JS that tries to scrape every detail about you so they can make a profile they can sell to (dis)information brokers.
Truly, an improvement.
(People have always sucked, the Internet just lets you interact with more people so…)
Depends on what you mean by “back in the day”. So far as I know you could be ~30, and “back in the day” for you is the 2005 era.
For some of us “back in the day” is more like the early 90’s (and even earlier than that if we want to include other online services, like BBS’s) — and the difference since Eternal September is pretty stark (in both good and bad ways).
I had one forum I went to and people trolled but they were community members and if it ever got out of hand they were banned. Nowadays people seem much more vicious, the more personal and the more it stings better.
Corporations and commercial interests taking over the internet is inevitable. the only free corners left are the darknets with tor/i2p. but because the normies can’t bother use that isn’t falshy and trendy, there might not be any other chance to replace this decrepit boring dystopia.
New rule: programmatic advertising is illegal
Not sure this has been said yet, but Neocities is a pretty great throwback to GeoCities and the early 2000’s web.
All a bunch of small, handcrafted websites and personal blogs by individuals and small groups.
Exploring feels like I remember back in the early 2000’s as a teen. Crazy and weird sites, hidden links and easter eggs, ARGs, random annon comments you can post to a wall, .gifs all over, pixel art, hacker manifestos, links to other similar sites, etc.
The Fediverse is pretty great too.
I wish there were more site directories curated by communities, that would reduce my reliance on search engines for sure. RSS is great, I’ve been using that to help build my personal content feed.
Oh my gosh, there’s webrings! That used to be such a good way to find new websites in a given topic.
neocities
this is very nice thank you
Absolutely!
Quality through obfuscation… make it harder to use. If the dimwits can’t figure out how to use it…
Back in the days of the wild frontier things were chaotic, anarchic, violent, and unconstrained.
Then came the churches, then came the schools
Then came the lawyers, then came the rules
Then came the trains and the trucks with their loads
And the dirty old track was the Telegraph RoadAnd now we’re all fenced in, regulated, allowed to wander only in approved lanes… oh, wait, sorry, we’re talking about the internet, not real life!
This pretty much. It got ‘civilized’
Nah, people got changed too. The younger generation is not interested in the technology that much otherwise then usage of it. Also even the older generation lost its interests because of getting older and family
No. It’s those who are gaslighting us to think this way.
Same as the early Soviet years of gaslighting how every revolution has the initial violent period and you have to be strict with the enemies of it. Or similar Soviet gaslighting of the 50s, where everything is to blame - the restoration after the war, the capitalist world, and what not, - for all problems. Or the 60s, where they were expected to wait 20 years more to the utter victory and passenger starships between Earth and Mars. Or the 70s, where the Soviet propaganda pretended that USSR is just a normal country, not a totalitarian one. Or the 80s, where nobody believed anything except democracy which was one thing present in speeches and not in reality, so they believed that USSR only has to become really democratic to suddenly turn into USA, cheap edition.
It (the Web) is corrupt, oligopolized and unsanitary, because nation-states saw its potential for propaganda and control, crooks saw its potential for scams big enough to bend laws for them, and stupid people saw its potential to confirm their stupid opinions.
‘monetized’
I really hate to argue in favor of all those scary things, but with those things in the old west came education and improvements to quality of life; better protections for the vulnerable and cures and prevention of disease.
Same could be said of the internet if we follow the analogy.
improvements to quality of life;
Native Americans: “Beg your pardon?”
Kind of my point. We gained ecommerce, streaming services, platforms such as this one, online gaming, mapping services, and others - at the cost of the freedoms for which people are nostalgic. And now we have ads, personalization, tracking, and inevitable enshitification.
