- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
“With membership at new lows and no electoral wins to their name, it’s time for the Greens to ditch the malignant narcissist who’s presided over its decline.”
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Jill Stein is both a terrible candidate and possibly a Russian agent. Even if I do align with much of the green parties stances and I live in a solidly blue state, I would never vote for her out of principle
then you are effectively falling right in line with the lies the DNC sold you since the “russian agent” theory is easily debunked after 5 seconds of googling.
I am more concerned with her lack of knowledge on any policy, to be honest with you
Indeed. I might vote for some Greens down-ballot, but Stein is a stain on the party and its cause
Jill Stein doesn’t know how many members of the House there are in Congress. 600?!?!
There is a 100% chance that Trump couldn’t name how many members there are in the house. I’d be shocked if he could list the branches of government without help.
note I’m not saying that’s acceptable. But if that’s your test for “is this a serious candidate” I hate to be the bearer of bad news…
Even if you assume she isn’t a bad faith actor, she’s still objectively failed to pass the one thing the world needs, the Green New Deal, and environmentalism is in the worst shape it’s been in decades.
That’s not all her fault, but her protest candidacy weirdness put Trump in office the first time instead of spending that time and effort on actual policy so…
Fuck off already?
Haha oh really. It had nothing to do with Hilary being the worst candidate ever? The authoritarian electoral college founded to preserve slavery? The rampant voter suppression by Republicans that Democrats refuse to stop. It was all her fault huh?
All her fault, no, but if she was a real progressive she would have learned a lesson and made a play for a lower office. But it’s very clear that’s not what she’s being paid to do.
Certainly if she has been trying to effect real change in a realistic way, rather than an egocentric impossible run at the presidency…
Things would have been different. She was one of many straws, which if subtracted, would have prevented trump
So for that and that alone, she and the rest of the greens can fuck right off.
See the No Labels folks for a more common sense way to be activist on national level politics.
Greens would be great if they would focus on good, winnable races from the bottom up…
What that called again?? Uhh ‘grass roots’
She funded an investigations that showed Hilary had won a state that went to Donald Trump. But sure it’s her that doesn’t care about democracy not the Democrats that rolled over on not one but two elections where they likely won.
I’ll agree that Dems have given up way too easily, mostly based on naive “for the good of the country” white knighting.
It probably didn’t start with Al Gore and the hanging chads, but that would have been a good time to realize that sometimes these fights are existential
Doesn’t change the fact that Stein is currently a russian-funded spoiler and she’s a drag on the Greens and does great disservice to all of the non-major parties.
I hope No Labels and other serious ‘third paries’ spend time focusing on voting reform like RCV or similar. Of course, many nerds will (probably correctly) claim that RCV is flawed in whatever way and we should try to move to some other even more complicated system. And then nothing will happen and we will continue to be stuck in a bi-party system with smaller factions only ever having the opportunity to act as spoilers in national or even state-wide races.
I am by inclination Green, but I live in Europe where the Greens have been through their scandals and emerged somewhat presentable. I don’t believe that is the case in the US, where the Greens and particularly Jill Stein are basically just useful idiots. They disrupt the candidates most aligned to their own cause. And in Stein’s case, she’s disrupts her own damned country.
Is she really responsible for the problems of the US Green party?
As near as I can tell the EU Green parties had a different trajectory. They initially started winning seats in parliaments on purely environmental platforms. Those MPs actually started pushing green agendas in various parliaments. That, in turn led to more people voting for them. Eventually that had to adopt policy positions beyond the environment and they tended to be pretty left.
The US never had Green party members in a position where they could actually do anything useful about the environment. That means they could never fulfill their primary goal in the US. So when they tried to branch out the same way the EU Green parties did, they just turned into a vague hodgepodge of leftists ideas.
Is there any suggestion that Jill Stein’s replacement would have any chance of saving the US Green party?
The Green party is doing exactly what it was designed to do. It’s siphoning off eco-conscious Democratic voters just significantly enough to affect voting margins but not enough to win. To be clear I’m not saying that Even a significant number of people in the green party have that as a goal, but top down, that’s all it’s about.
We are a two-party system and they are allowing the green party to exist to use it as a wedge.
Then I guess y’all should starting reworking how your system works, because it doesn’t sound like a democracy at all if you can’t vote for what you actually believe in.
America has what I like to call ‘Monkey’s Paw Democracy’; almost as if someone wished for a representative Government from a cursed object.
Now instead of voting for policies they like, voters are forced to vote against policies they dislike or risk being punished my having their rights slowly chipped away.
We would, but as it stands now it’s an authoritarian dictatorship, right wing hellscape, and a marginally awful moderate right wing dystopia in a trench coat and they’re not about to cede any distance to allowing us new liberties.
If we don’t get at least a 60% margin there’s a really good chance the guy that said this will be the last time you ever have to vote, I’m going to be a dictator on day one and I’m going to imprison all of the opponents, legislators and donors that went against me.
Outside of an actual moderate or left-wing coup which is pretty much impossible I don’t see there’s any way that this country is getting out of this.
Agreed, but while we’re working on that in multiple avenues, we still need to vote for the harm reduction choice.
Someone should inform the Whigs
It would be nice but you’d have to go back to 1850 because we eradicated them and made sure it couldn’t happen again.
Every vote for Harris is stealing a vote from third-party candidates who represent real change. By sidelining those voices, you’re indirectly helping Trump win!
Hahaha hahahahahahahaha hahahahah. You’re hilarious!
Right?!
The issue is she sucks all the oxygen out of the room with her pointless presidential runs and does nothing for the four years in between. There’s an inconsequential number of Greens who run and win elections in small cities and towns or less consequential elections, and none of them have won any federal elections. A real party leader would recruit and foster candidates in large cities and state legislatures— and then get folks to run for the US House, the Senate, state governorships, and then the presidency.
Stein is less a party leader and more a figurehead who basically seems to be in it for the grift. And so US Greens (especially in comparison to those in the EU) are less a party and more just a convenient label for those of a certain bent that want to run as something other than as a Democrat.
My question was more along the lines of the “(not so) the great (wo)man” hypothesis.
Let’s imagine that Jill Stein was permanently abducted by aliens. What do we think would happen?
Would the Green Party just collapse?
Would the former member just join the Democrats?
Would they start a new party?
Or maybe someone new would take over who could do a better job?
I think we’d likely just get someone who’s functionally equivalent.Ah, I get your question now. Unfortunately I think it’s impossible to say, but I do know it’s impossible to find out while she’s still there.
Maybe vote count is instructive:
Nader 2000: 2,882,955
Nader 2004: 465,650
McKinney 2008: 161,797
Stein 2012: 469,501
Stein 2016: 1,457,216
Hawkins 2020: 407,068
I don’t think the party would collapse without Stein. They have been around for decades and they have a cadre of oranizers who will continue to show up regardless of results. Stein is just the most famous person they can use for a presidential election, and you can see from the above results what happens when they run someone nobody has heard of.
I think they genuinely believe in their core values, and it’s unfortunate that Stein is their only viable candidate. They won’t ever be a real political party until they start winning local/state elections, but they’re looking to secure more federal funding by getting enough votes. If Stein disappeared then they would keep doing this but they’d never breach half a million votes. Maybe a progressive democrat in the House would smell an opportunity and break ranks to run for president with the Greens. That could maybe get them a million or two votes again.
Or maybe it absolutely does not matter who they run and they just get a lot of votes when the Democrats run particularly shitty candidates for president.
In terms of her affect on the Green party, those numbers make it look like she’s fairly run-of-the-mill. Her first one was low and later on she posted numbers similar to more famous candidates.
I did a quick search on where those candidates are and it seems that many of potential Green party candidates are in swing states. It also looks like many of them are specifically siding with them because of their stance on Gaza.
That suggests that she’s just fine for the Greens and is likely even helping them. She’s a problem for Democrats because there’s an assumption that those voters would switch to the Democratic ticket if they don’t vote Green.
Right. If democrats want those votes then Biden needs to make significant progress on ending the genocide now. The threat from third parties exerts an outsize pressure on the Democrats to actually do something. But of course they likely won’t, and instead Trump will take advantage of this.
Nader 2004: 465,650
Nader wasn’t even the Green candidate in 2004. Nader ran as an independent in 2004.
That year the Green Party ran David Cobb, who got 119,859 votes, putting him behind the Constitution Party, the Libertarian Party, and the independent Ralph Nader.
In 2008, Nader ran again as an independent and beat the Green Party once again, with 739,034 votes, versus McKinney’s 162k. In between were the Libertarians in fourth place, and the Constitution Party in fifth place.
The Green Party has never even come in third place, and several times hasn’t even come in fifth place, in our two party system.
My mistake, thanks
I’m voting for the party for socialism and liberation and you can too.
You don’t need to vote green to cast a third party ballot.
will be voting for the PSL if they’re on the ballot in my state, Claudia De la Cruz is great. if they don’t make it on the ballot then it’ll probably go to Stein as I believe she’s confirmed on the ballot in my state, but the PSL is my first choice!
edit: just checked, the PSL is indeed on the ballot in my state, so they’ve got my vote :3
So basically what you’re saying is you’re not voting this year.
No, I didn’t say that.
My ballot will be counted for PSL.
That’s the opposite of not voting.
You know… voting.
My ballot will be counted for PSL.
Yeah, you are voting for literally nobody. If you’d stayed at home, nothing would be different.
No, PSL is running Claudia de la Cruz. That’s who I’m voting for, not nobody.
If you think my vote doesn’t change anything then why do you keep replying about it?
If you think my vote doesn’t change anything then why do you keep replying about it?
Because I had hoped you weren’t a complete moron. But unfortunately I was mistaken.
Surely you can state your case without resorting to insults?
It would be a real bummer if you were only trying to browbeat and shame people into voting how you like!
By extension you are enabling Donald Trump. So, quite frankly, insults are required.
If more of you “conscientious objectors” actually showed up to vote we could actually start working on the Democratic party and trying to shape it better by pushing for more progressive candidates within the party. Instead you’re giving meat to the right by leaving the vote tallies at too close to call numbers while Jill Stein gets her not even 5% of the vote and then walks home with all those juicy endorsements which she will spin into nice fat paid lectures. All the while holding us in this pattern of continually fighting against the absolute evil that is conservativism. We are fighting for a better world, while you are throwing a tantrum.
Surely you can state your case without resorting to insults?
Not on Lemmy!
And it will mean nothing to anyone other than yourself.
You’re replying to me about it so it means something to you too! ❤️
Cool. Not sure I’ve seen anyone arguing against that point.
And of course you’ve been working all the time for the past four years in support of socialism and liberation? Because of course, you wouldn’t be one of the people who only jump in every four years with a third party vote because they think it makes them edgy and cool? That would just be sad.
A lot of the tone of these anti green posts seems pointed at pushing people to vote for the democrats instead. I’m as anti Green Party as they come, but I want to make sure people know there are still good third parties to support.
As a member of the lemmy instance for privacy and open source, I’m not gonna dox myself, but yeah, I’m absolutely politically active in the off years lol.
You wouldn’t happen to be trying to badjacket people or gatekeep support for PSL, would you? Because first timers and those newly disillusioned with the democrats are welcome to vote for PSL. No experience required.
I have a question about PSL. My organizational background is in labor mostly, though I have done some door knocking for critical elections.
How is your candidate getting however many votes (feel free to estimate) going to help the working class? Or alternatively, how does your electoral campaign help PSL? Is this ultimately a recruitment drive?
Well, PSL is a socialist party with a platform that explicitly promotes worker control over the means of production, but on a less theoretical level, they show up and provide material support to strikes and worker action.
So if it was just a recruitment drive I think it would be good because a bigger psl means more support for workers.
But I honestly don’t think it is just a recruitment drive. Psl seems to have an actual theory of power that is in opposition to the structures of power that support the democrats and republicans.
In order to build that power psl needs to show people that their government doesn’t have to be trash which doesn’t represent them or help them. Participating in electoralism does that.
Even if psl goes nowhere, a big showing would force other major parties to recognize that there is significant support and, critically now, stability to be gained by adopting the principles of a pro worker party.
So pretty much I think it’s an unalloyed good for workers.
Yeah, I’m just wondering why they’re launching a national presidential campaign rather than trying to win locally first. See for example DSA’s (the veil falls lol) cadre candidates like Zohran Mamdani.
It seems to me like PSL is skipping this step and going straight to national, with the net result of devoting a lot of energy that could be spent on worker organizing on a campaign that everyone knows is not going to win.
This also bears the risk of helping Trump win by siphoning off votes from Harris, and a Trump victory will have damaging effects on the NLRB, an organization which in its current state is making it a lot easier for workers to unionize.
So I’m just not seeing how any third party presidential run ties into building worker power, but maybe I am missing something.
I think if psl were just running a presidential candidate and nothing else then you’d have a good point, but especially in California (the party started there?) they run a bunch of candidates for different positions.
I think that’s different from dsa because psl purports to have party discipline whereas that was a big problem and point of contention in dsa over the past four years.
I actually think that to the extent it matters, parties like dsa and greens take away more votes from the democrats because they’re basically places for spicy or heady democrats to go respectively.
Of course, the onus falls on the political party plying their platform to pander to the populace and not the reverse, so basically if the democrats want psl, dsa or green votes it’s their responsibility to adopt those positions or enter into some coalition with those parties.
As far as the nlrb goes, the next step is the same if we end up with an extension of the Biden nlrb, a trump nlrb (or the dissolution thereof) or some third party nlrb: build and express worker power that can actually successfully demand concessions from the ruling class as opposed to subsist on crumbs allowed to fall from the table.
I don’t honestly think it would be significantly easier under Biden than trump and the rail strike is evidence. Rather than acquiesce to some pretty milquetoast demands, the Biden administration broke the strike.
If you’re involved in dsa, how’s your local?
My local is great but I don’t have any others to compare to so it’s a pretty vapid description. There’s a PSL here too and they come to a lot of our events. It’s always interesting to hear from the more radical formation.
The thing with DSA “party discipline” is that it’s not a political party. It’s basically a nonprofit with local chapters that all have their own agendas, some of which run candidates. So I’m interested to see what happens with a more centralized (as far as I understand it anyway) structure like PSL.
In terms of labor organizing I do think the political climate matters. The rail strike is an example of national scale union busting, but on more local levels (Starbucks, Amazon, Cemex…) that the NLRB actually matters. Here’s an article about it.
https://www.laborpolitics.com/p/how-bidens-nlrb-has-boosted-bottom
Isn’t that like accusing the maggots of killing the corpse?
Counterpoint: The Green Party hasn’t done much to keep people engaged. They killed themselves.
At least the Tea Party had a decent run and engaged with the people who would vote for them. Though, it let MAGA convert or overtake it, but the point still stands. The Tea Party did more in the 10ish years it existed than the Green Party has done in 20 years.
Counter-counterpoint: the Tea Party was an astroturf movement funded by big oil, big tobacco and the Koch brothers. Given massive amounts of support by media companies (lots and lots of oxygen). With the purpose of taking over the GOP and entrenching their toxic industries and power.
With the perspective we have now it is clear that their plan was to push Republican supporters over into fascism (not to say that it wasn’t latent within many of them) and reduce the risks of democracy to the oligarchy.
The US green party is essentially an astroturf movement to prevent people from even going as “left” as the Democrats. The Tea Party is there to move Republicans to fascism. The Greens have been co-opted to lubricate that process for them.
And then the Green Party was a zombie.
Just kidding it always was.
Trump is gunna win and it will be your fault libs. Just like the first time. You ain’t going to be able to spin your way out of this.
Green party has been dead since Nader.
Pretending they had a chance in a voting system that can barely support two parties was kinda pitiable. Until we have RCV for federal elections at a minimum, they will never have a shot.
They have a shot, by joining the Democratic Party. The same way that progressives join liberals, make their voice heard, and let the voters decide.
Or, just here me out, the Democrats adopt ranked choice voting from the Green Party platform, ditch aid to Israel, and make Jill Stein obsolete. I know, I know, it’s crazy. But, it might just work.
Or just hear me out, the green party stops playing spoiler every 4 years. Proving that their platform is meaningless and empty. And instead focuses on running and recruiting for state and local legislature to actually pass ranked Choice voting. And where it makes sense, such as offices no Democrat is running for. Recruit and endorsed a candidate to run as the combined democrat/green party candidate. Instead of constantly splitting the vote helping conservatives and the bourgeoisie.
I guess we’re never getting ranked choice voting then. And the genocide will continue until morale improves, according to bourgeois liberals.
This is a little discussed problem with fptp (along with many others) it gives minor parties perverse incentive to play spoiler, which gives foreign actors an opportunity to find spoilers.
Until we have RCV
Whens that?
When Congress votes it into law.
We elect congress
Yep. Glad you see the progression.
Step 1:elect people that support ranked choice voting.
I.E. jill stein
How can she be elected?
jill stein is running for congress?
Why is the Green party not focused on congressional candidates then?
Maybe they should take some of the money they spend on Stein’s vanity run and instead use it on their Congressional races.
When’s the last time you saw an ad for a Green Party candidate? Or saw a candidate holding rallies in your state?
There’s plenty of local and even state positions where Republicans run unopposed and Democrats don’t even put up a candidate. Why aren’t Greens investing in those races? Those are literally the perfect opportunity for Greens to start making headway.
It’s not up to Congress, states decide how to run their elections.
Until they don’t. That’s not a guaranteed feature. As SCOTUS and Conservatives have taught me over the last several years, historical precedent doesn’t mean shit.
Not true when it comes to Congressional races. I did a post a couple days ago about a bill that three Dems just introduced https://lemmy.world/post/19772020
Depends. How hard are you working on it?
The Green Party is.
Im supporting the leading candidate that has ranked choice voting as part of their platform
And you’re completely aware that won’t work?
Its the only thing that can. Its not happening until then
San Francisco has had ranked choice voting for years, and the fucking Green party didn’t get it for us lmao
Progressive Democrats like ranked choice voting.
If you are talking about federal candidates, it is not the only thing that can, and in fact it won’t happen even then because a federal candidate gets zero say in how the elections are done.
So it won’t work. Okay then, we’re on the same page there.
Maybe he just needs to work harder on it.
No federal office is going to give you RCV.
The logistics of federal elections are the purview of the state governments.
That one’s interest do not lie with understanding anything. They’re either too naive to. Or paid to appear to naive to
They will if we elect them
A-fucking-men.
The Green Party should be the RCV party and that should be their main focus. After that then they and any other party would actually stand a chance. Republicans are actively banning RCV from being implemented and Democrats are slow walking it, but we need to keep pushing.
TBH, I don’t see it happening except organically from within the Democratic Party. If enough progressive Democrats get elected, I think it stands a chance to happen in our lifetimes.
Any democrat has a vested interest in first past the post continuing.
This is just not true. Places which are doing RCV are literally state at metro democratic strongholds. Democrats are literally the only ones pushing it.
Democrats are literally the only ones pushing it.
Also Alaska, for some weird reason.
I disagree, which is why I specified the word “progressive.”
Vested interest meaning it benefits them, i doubt you disagree with the current system of only two parties being considered for elections improves the odds of those two parties winning elections
Actually, an RCV system may help the democrats, at least in the short term.
For the last couple of decades, the “spoiler” candidates generally take from the democrats more than the republicans. Last big spoiler third party that screwed the right was Perot that I remember. With RCV, then the ‘fringe’ votes can still be cast and democrats can work toward being the second choice of those hardliners. At least in the short term, it alleviates the need to actually compete for votes with candidates that are going to lose anyway.
Longer term, it may cause a viable third party or more to get some steam (attracting practical candidates that no longer see the need to be a D or R to get votes, the parties generally getting left alone by outside forces that find them not worth weaponizing), but I don’t think the politicians are too concerned on that long a time frame.
What I disagree with is your implication that they will only ever act in their own interests. I do not know that to be true in the future (and neither do you), as not everyone is motivated by money or power. Enough politicians who see it as vital to the health of US democracy, and change will happen.
I’m not proposing that it will, only that it is far from a precluded possibility. As Boomers die out and retire, I have hope for the Millennials and Gen Zers who replace them.
The Green Party should be the RCV party
They are. Holy shit.
It’s right there in the platform.
That’s all well and good, but useless in any federal race because the federal government does not dictate how the elections/voting are done.
Brings it back around to if you care so damn much, then focus your resources on state governments.
You should reread the elections clause. Congress has authority to regulate elections
That would mean actually caring about running campaigns for state goverments. State governments are the ones that can (and in Alaska’s case have) implement RCV.
Actually, score voting would be better. IRV (also known as RCV) has been proven to lead to the same 2-party domination and has many disadvantages.
https://zeteo.com/p/exclusive-mehdi-interviews-jill-stein?utm_campaign=post
For those that don’t want to give Elon fucking muskrat a click. Fuck Twitter.
Is there a good article out there with highlights of the interview? I feel like this would merit its own post, it’s an amazing watch and very important to see for those still considering Stein a legitimate option.
Ive been thinking more and more that the only way forward for the green party may just be to pic a few states and focus on local races. Get control over city councils and some mayoralships. Hell, a green caucus in state houses could actually do some good
The fact that they’re not doing that but just going straight for an unwinnable Presidential election tells you a lot.
They are doing that. They win about 20% of the local elections they run in for council seats, etc. They hold 140 elected positions according to their website.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Green_politicians_who_have_held_office_in_the_United_States
Federal officials
As of 2023, no nominee of the Green Party has been elected to office in the federal government.
State officials
As of 2024, 8 Greens have held state-level office. However, only 3 were elected or re-elected as Greens.
As of 2024, no Greens currently hold state-level office.
Four current Mayors are listed, though only one “ran as green”. Seventeen Greens are in city and county councils.
Thats cool, etc
Here’s their list, if you’re curious.
I post this not to endorse Jill Stein, but rather because I wanted to see the info for myself so that I could understand what they consider an “elected position”.
Thanks
If they were a serious political party. But that would require you to believe that they are wildly incompetent and being supported for that incompetence. Rather than they’re doing this intentionally. Not seriously running to win or improve anything. But being a divisive spectacle to destroy solidarity on the left.
Yeah, to be relevant they need to win some elections in large cities and state legislatures. That would be the base necessary to start winning congressional seats and then work up from there. Because the Jill Stein narcissism tour every four years is clearly doing more harm than good.
And it would be the best thing in the world for the Dems. They need cogent and real opposition and right now they’re just running against crazies - which is important, but doesn’t do much for establishing an agenda. A functional Green Party would actually help pull the Dems back more to the left.
You can also vote the Democratic primaries, too.
That worked out, suprisingly well, for Sanders. Think about how much change you could affect voting for Sanderses at every level.
The best part of running for a state legislature or congressional position is that they could team with democrats to block the GOP, so unlike the presidential election you aren’t voting against your interest for electing a third party.
Those races are also FPTP so they do risk the same spoiler effect. Maybe it would do for a deep blue area?
I’m searching around and something like CA-12 was 90% Biden. Candidates could split that like five or six ways and still not have any danger of a Repub.
I don’t think there are any state level positions that would accommodate that. Even Vermont is only D+16, so the third party is a larger risk.
There are some parts of the US where they are not first-past-the-post.
- Alaska - uses top 4 primary + ranked choice general
- Maine - uses ranked choice voting
- California & Washington - use a top-two primary
The Greens could effectively run in those places, as well as races where the Democrats aren’t running a candidate.
But when I see them running for local office, they’re basically running to be on the ballot, not mounting a serious effort to win.
Says quite a bit that Greens aren’t even doing much in California or Washington.
Seeing the disrepair the Republicans have left the south in, I wonder if there is room to do a grass roots campaign in more red areas with a focus of charity and community service? “We are here to help. No, we are not Dems” might work in Louisiana or Alabama
Probably, but that would require the Greens to be competent.
I actually think that would work. Campaign on: Charity, Community, and Clean Environment.
Sam Seder has been saying rhis for a decade at this point.
Its how you build a political movement.
Funny, I just heard him bring it up in a clip. Glad I’m not the oblyone thinking this, means I’m not completely crazy. Could a political party operate a community grocery “store” with campaign funds?
This is how the Tea Party and MAGA co-opted the Republicans, and it’s the model progressives should use to move the needle in the Democratic party (and they have, with some success).
If progressives want to see change, progressives need to vote. In every election. General or primary.
I remember in the late 90s the Green Party in my district was on a roll, culminating in the election of a member to the California state assembly (one of the highest posts ever held by the Greens in the US). Then came Nader’s presidential bid and its perceived role in the election of Bush, which permanently crippled the legitimacy of the local party. They’re still doing great work with voter guides, legislative analysis, etc.; but they’ll never escape the shadow of Nader and Stein.
I think the only viable path for a third party now is to start a new one from scratch, and disavow presidential bids from the outset.
Who needs party membership when you have unlimited money cheat code from daddy Putin?
What makes you think a politically irrelevant person like Stein would capture the attention of putin?
Oh hey wow who put that picture here.
And the republican billionaires who think you will spoil races.
If Harris wants to win over Stein voters, this is definitely not the way to do it.
Good thing then this is an opinion piece from a publication, and not something from Harris?
If Stein voters are offended by an article that a journalist writes about how ineffectual the Green Party is, and they blame Harris for that, that says more about the voters than it does anything else.
Namely that Greens will blame everyone except themselves for election losses.
They’re quoting people from the DNC in the article. Did you even read it?
we’re not trying to win you over we’re trying to have one fucking space in the whole world that isn’t rotten with useful idiots to the point of being unusable. leave
Ahhh yes. And voting dogmatically for the “lesser evil” over and over makes you so morally superior.
In the current 2 party system there is no alternative. An un-serious candidate like stein has no chance to win, no chance to get anything done as she lacks all down ballot support. So calling it dogmatically is nonsense it is realistically. With the razor thin margins, do you really want to run the risk of a trump victory?
Stein said Russia wasn’t entirely at fault for the war and their invasion of Ukraine. She refused to condemn Putin in a recent interview, with an independent progressive journalist.
You’re supporting a lesser evil too. You just don’t want to recognize it. And in that regard, yes, people who vote for Democrats and recognize their imperfections are morally superior.
So no thoughts on perennial sorta kinda candidate Stein making the Green Party a laughingstock then? Or the fact that with her campaign only surviving with the help of GOP operatives and Russian propaganda campaigns, she’s actually making it harder to take third party candidates seriously at any level of government?
No thoughts on the democratic party completely capitulating to a reactionary right wing framework on Israel, immigration, and foreign policy? No thoughts on the Biden/Harris administration actively funding a genocide for the past year? No thoughts on Kamala promising to continue allowing Israel to “defend itself”? Blue maga is literally celebrating the endorsement of the architect of the invasion of Iraq. Did the Democratic establishment forget to at least pretend to be an opposition party?
“blue maga”
Oh, you’re one of those. Figures.
Jill Stein does not know how many Representatives are in the US House of Representatives.
Anyone care to defend that? That the kind of President you want?
I’m voting for Claudia de la Cruz, not that it matters. neither Claudia, Cornel West, or Jill Stein are actively funding a genocide.
Yeah they are. It’s just in Ukraine, which you don’t give a shit about for some reason.
Oh I give a shit about the working class of Ukraine, thanks for asking. It’s just that Biden/Harris aren’t bypassing Congress multiple times to send $60 billion of my tax dollars to Russia to further their imperialism. But yeah you definitely don’t care about Palestinians, you’ve made that clear. I’m willing to bet you don’t care for the people of Syria, or Libya, or Afghanistan, or Iraq either. I wonder what the common denominator is there. Maybe you just absolutely despise brown Muslims on the opposite end of US imperial conquest.
You’re carrying water for people who say Russia had no choice but to invade and that Russia isn’t to blame for starting the war.
These candidates are excusing Russia’s actions and not assigning proper culpability to the genocidal, imperial Putin regime. And you’re going to vote for them?
So how come you’ve got a line in the sand that you won’t support any candidate who supports Palestinian genocide, but that doesn’t apply to Ukrainian genocide?
By your own logic you should be rejecting the Greens too.
neither Claudia, Cornel West, or Jill Stein are actively funding a genocide.
Yes, because none of these people work in the government so no fucking shit.
You’re essentially voting for Donald Trump, just remember that. You can try to rationalize it, but you cannot argue with reality.
If you actually gave a single shit about the Palestinian people (that you suddenly started caring about on an election year, despite the conditions in Gaza being this way for literal decades), then you will do anything to make sure that Donald Trump does not get elected.
If you want a viable third party, you don’t wait until 8 months before an election every 4 years to steal votes from the Democratic party. Until we do away with first past the post and/or the Electoral College, voting for anyone other than one of the two major parties is akin to not voting at all (or in many cases, an active detriment to the Democratic party, which is why it’s always such a no-brainer for Putin. Maximum social discord, minimum cost).
I know that you know this. I just want you to remember it when Trump wins and by February Palestine literally ceases to exist. If you want to see this genocide kicked into high gear all you gotta do is: vote for Donald Trump, vote for a third party, or not vote at all… And then you too can feel like you’re part of the action!
I’ve been heavily anti-Israel since the murder of Rouzan al-Najjar in 2018. I’ve worked on multiple local campaigns for both independent and Democratic candidates alike. But reading through your rant it definitely sounds like you’re projecting a lot of your own personal insecurities. I’m sorry that exercising my freedom to vote for a candidate that aligns with my values of not commiting genocide upsets you. I hope you can look past your own shortcomings as a human being and learn to forgive yourself for being ok with your tax dollars slaughtering an entire indigenous population.
But your proposed course of action clearly doesn’t align with your stated goal, for reasons that have already been pointed out to you. I don’t see you engaging with that argument. This leads me to believe that you don’t actually care about what happens to Palestinians; you just want to feel like you’re taking a moral stand. People that actually give a shit tend to care about what the consequences of their actions will be.
dude she can’t unequivocally say Putin is a war criminal. save me the capitulation bullshit.
We’re going to have the most lethal military because 70 percent of your tax dollars should go to the department of defense rather than addressing the tens of thousands of Americans dying from lack of access to healthcare, lack of public transit that would provide accessibility to underserved communities, particularly those of color, or funding education so that teachers don’t need to live out of their cars or have fundraisers to pay for their curriculum.
We will continue to ensure Israel can defend itself from children throwing rocks and homemade rockets against a brutal apartheid regime that controls every aspect of Palestinian life.
We’re going to focus on border security because immigrants are clearly the problem as stated initially by the GOP, rather than counter a racist narrative using a false premise with the fact that undocumented immigrants commit crimes at a substantially lower rate than American citizens and also greatly contribute to our economy.
Yeah that’s literally just conservative policy.
i don’t know what you’re arguing for. stein is not it. she’s not genuine. she’s done nothing to make the green party even remotely relevant for a decade. she just shows up every four years to collect money. she’s a grifter.
I’m voting for Claudia de la Cruz. Reading is hard
when did you mention that? this whole thread was about stein and you kept going on tangents about military and shit.
also wow that brings the total de la Cruz votes to … i guess 1? there will be a margin of error so it should be somewhere between -99 and 101. congrats on your vote for the republican party.
this post is about Stein and the Green party, nobody asked for your literal whataboutism. Shows just how effective geekwithsoul’s comment is that you couldn’t muster a single word in response and instead turned to “b-b-b-but democrats!!!”
That last sentence with ‘blue maga’ says everything about what you support, no surprise all you have are whatabouts
Mentioning that the current admin has been actively funding a genocide for a year and that both major parties promise to continue to do so in 2025, isn’t a whataboutism. Sorry to criticize your genocidal queen, I know stopping to consider that brown Muslims are humans too can be very taxing on most Americans.
One, at least.
Do you not know what a state dinner is?
Wow, you found one of the millions of photos of The President of the United States dining with another world leader. Congrats.
What was Jill’s excuse?
She went to an RT party, was investigated by the Senate Intelligence Committee, and excused. Don’t vote for her if you don’t want to. I won’t, because I’m in a swing state. But the dis/mis information and slandering of third parties should be disconcerting for anyone who wants more choices in this duopoly.
RT
So literally the Kremlin’s propaganda arm. Totally normal stuff…
After all, she was a government official at the time, so it’s normal for her to dine with the Russian president. Oh wait, she wasn’t?
Well at least she was a major presidential candidate right? Oh, never more than ~1.4% you say?
Well I’m sure Putin and his oligarch buddies just wanted to meet her because they’re big fans 🙄.
I have a hard time believing any of you Jill Stein shills are actually for real. I really hope you’re not.
Do we really have to explain the difference between public officials who work in foreign policy and directly represent the United States, versus private citizens?
She was investigated. They found no Russian money. AIPAC donates to Harris and Trump. Facts aren’t hypocritical.
Care to engage with any of these, then?
What convinced you that the Green Party is a laughingstock and that Stein is responsible?
Or the fact that with her campaign only surviving with the help of GOP operatives and Russian propaganda campaigns, she’s actually making it harder to take third party candidates seriously at any level of government?
Which GOP donors and Russian operatives are you referring to? Donations are a matter of public record. Which ones are from the GOP and Russia?
My man! I just wanted to compliment you on the reserved and good responses. You have a patience not many have. Keep up the good work.
Thanks! I can get a little snarky sometimes but generally assume adding more information to a discussion is more helpful than not. :)
Where are the donations?
You mentioned donations, not me.
Harris wants to win over Stein voters, this is definitely not the way to do it.
This is true, I’ve already spoken to all 7 of them, they’re mad.
However it’s all their fault if Harris loses.
