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This article is FUD from big password.
If we all had big passwords, this may not have been an issue to begin with lol
Probably, but the real problem has been database dumps for a good number of years now. Maybe this thing fixes that?
That is true. That has been, and (for some dumb reason) continues to be, a real problem.
I am very shitty on security (I would not write this reply on a post on the cybersecurity community), and I resisted MFA for several years as being too annoying having to login to mail/SMS. After finding open source apps supporting TOTP, I feel better about it and I manually do the syncing by just transferring the secrets between my devices offline.
Passkeys are another foreign thing that I think I will get used to eventually, but for now there are too many holes in support, too much vendor lock-in (which was my main distaste for MFA, I didn’t want MS or Google Authenticator), and cumbersome (when email and SMS were the only options for MFA, difficulty of portability for passkeys).
So the problems you have with them are already solved, in the exact same ways they were solved for password/MFA. If you let Apple manage everything for you, it doesn’t matter whether you’re using passwords or passkeys, you’re locked in either way. But you always have the option to manage your passkeys manually (just like you’re doing with your TOTP) or using a third party cross-platform solution that allows for passkey import and export.
I wish FIDO had paid more attention to SQRL. It’s long in the tooth now, but with some attention it could have been a better solution than passkeys, IMO.
Dunno, we rolled it out without issue. But of course they also had keepass. You want password AND (TOTP token or hardware token)
DHH with a pants-on-head stupid argument just because he hates the big players in tech? Must be a day ending in Y again.
I disagree with most of those arguments in the article… Additionally, there is nearly no passkey using service that does require you to still have PW and 2FA login active even if you use passkeys
We are right now in the learning/testing phase. It is not a flip and suddenly only passkey work. Transition to passkey only will be a very long time, like it was for 2FA, like, my girlfriend has it on, only at about 2 services, lol.
The main problem I have is, that people without knowledge get grabbed into walled gardens using passkeys. People with knowledge know that you can use alternative apps for passkeys, like proton or strongbox (keepass).
I always thought of passkeys as a convenient way to authenticate.
I am password-less on multiple services.
I have an authentication app on my phone that authenticate me when I am away of my computers. I have passkeys on my personal computer and another set of passkeys on my work laptop.
If I have to authenticate from your computer I simply use my auth app, click on “it’s a public computer” and I am good to go.
The dude discovered a butter knife and he tries to replace his spoon with it just to realize it doesn’t work well for eating a soup.
Do you add separate keys on every device?
If you do, how long does it take you to add a new device?For example, when you login on Github, go in your settings, authentication & security on the left.
Click “add passkey”, enter your Windows Hello PIN, click save.
It will ask you to enter a name, so I go with ComputerName-GitHub
Click ok.
Done with this device.
How long does it take? Well, how fast can you do these steps?
This does not scale. I have 400 logins in my Bitwarden account right now.
There was a related news recently, that bitwarden and other pw managers will be able to sync passkeys between devices. Won’t that solve these issues?
I remain hopeful. Initially, when Keypass wanted to include a simple export option there was talk of banning them from using Passkeys.
My thoughts exactly. I use Bitwarden and passkeys sync flawlessly between my devices. Password managers tied to a a device or ecosystem are stupid and people shouldn’t use them. This is true whether you use passwords or passkeys.
That said, we cannot blame users for bad UX that some platforms and some devs provide.
Isn’t your password manager tied to an ecosystem with Bitwarden ?
I’m surprised people trust third parties to hold their passwords.
Wasn’t there multiple password managers that got powned over the years ?
If you can sync Passwords you are also more exposed than some unhandy secure local password storage.
I can use bitwarden on Windows, Linux, Mac, iOS, Android, on desktop app or using CLI. That’s a stark difference in comparison with built in Microsoft or Apple keychains. And yes, I trust Bitwarden.
Wasn’t there multiple password managers that got powned over the years ?
Pretty much only LastPass
Bitwarden is not usable on Linux desktop, keeps asking for password. The password can’t be too short, so it takes some time to type it in. I turn off my computer when it’s not needed, so I would just need to type in the password when I turn it on again.
Anyone have a better solution?
A better solution is to disable vault lock. It is very much usable (mostly talking about browser extension).
Is “keeps asking for the password” the definition of “unusable on Linux”?
I have zero issue using this on Linux fwiw; yes, I am asked for password again on BW when I reboot/start my system. That is not inconvenient to me.
The fingerprint doesn’t work on Linux last time I tried
I think its a recent addition (08/2024) on Linux.
Add support for biometric unlock on Linux
Not in all situations. And in a way a user will not be aware of. The service or website can define what type of passkey is allowed (based in attestation). You may not be able to acutally use your “movable” keys because someone else decided so. You will not notice this until you actually face such a service. And when that happens, you can be sure that the average user will not understand what ia going on. Not all passkeys are equal, but that fact is hidden from the user.
It does*.
However when I’m trying to login with a passkey in my mobile browser, Bitwarden prompt isn’t showing up. I don’t know what’s wrong.
That’s weird, it works for me. Is there something you need to click on the mobile site?
I’ve found on my android phone that the bitwarden prompt comes up more reliably if I tap on the password field instead of the username field.
This might be true, but I’m talking about passkeys, that never work :(
If you’re using Android it’s more than likely just an OS issue. I have had a lot of issues on my phone trying to use passkeys let alone just the password manager.
I do think that we need more standard procedures around what a reset/authorize new device looks like in a passkey world. There’s a lot about that process that just seems like it’s up to the implementer. But I don’t think that invalidates passkeys as a whole, and most people are going to have access to their mobile device for 2 factor no matter where they are.
The problem with passkeys is that they’re essentially a halfway house to a password manager, but tied to a specific platform in ways that aren’t obvious to a user at all, and liable to easily leave them unable to access of their accounts.
Agreed, in its current state I wouldn‘t teach someone less technically inclined to solely rely on passkeys saved by the default platform if you plan on using different devices, it just leads to trouble.
If you’re going to teach someone how to deal with all of this, and all the potential pitfalls that might lock them out of your service, you almost might as well teach them how to use a cross-platform password manager
Using a password manager is still the solution. Pick one where your passkeys can be safed and most of the authors problems are solved.
The only thing that remains is how to log in if you are not on a device you own (and don’t have the password manager). The author mentions it: the QR code approach for cross device sign in. I don’t think it’s cumbersome, i think it’s actually a great and foolproof way to sign in. I have yet to find a website which implements it though.
people will pick the corporate options that are shoved on their faces, not the sensible open source user-respecting ones.
vendor lockin will happen if we adopt passkeys as they are right now.
Bitwarden just announced a consortium with Apple, Google, 1Password, etc to create a secure import/export format for credentials; spurred by the need for passkeys to be portable between password managers (but also works for passwords/other credential types)
I’m definitely holding off on passkeys until that project is finished. I also don’t want vendor lock in and while that seems like the solution, it seems like they just started working on it.
Import export is not the same as interoperability
The interoperability already exists in the protocol webauthn, part of FIDO2 which has been around for almost a decade. Interoperability is not remotely an issue with passkeys. Imported/export is/was and also already has a solution in the works.
So I can use the same passkey from say, bitwarden and windows hello? Why do you even need import export then?
Yes you can use a passkey set up on any given service to authenticate to a service that supports passkeys. You’d need import/export to move a given passkey from bitwarden to Windows.
It could be your browser / system that is struggling to show it. When I use my work computer and Microsoft edge, I don’t think I’ve ever had a situation where the QR code didn’t work. When I use flatpak’d Firefox on my Linux laptop, I experience more trouble, probably because of the sandboxing.
According to the device support page i should be ok, but yeah there might be something weird going on.
QR codes are good 50% of the time; when you’re trying to log in on a pc.
The reverse case is extremely annoyingCould you elaborate? I am assuming that everbody would have the password manager on their mobile phone with them, which is used to scan the qr code. I think that’s a reasonable assumption.
I agree that if you wanted the pc to act as the authenticator (device that has the passkey) it wouldn’t work with qr codes. But is that a usecase that happens at all for average people? Does anyone login to a mobile device that you don’t own, and you only have your pc nearby and not your own mobile phone?
I’m thinking of phone recovery, where you’re trying to get all your stuff back on a new device.
With a password manager, simply logging in will get you there and until passkeys can be synced automatically just like passwords this will need to be handled somehow.I hope I am not misunderstanding you. What you are worried about is passkeys in the password manager not syncing to new devices? They are though, with password managers that support passkeys like Bitwarden, ProtonPass, 1Password etc…
Currently using it on Bitwarden, if I log in to a new device, the passkeys are there.
You understood correctly. Seems like I missed some news on the syncing front.
Why does anyone still give a fuck what DHH has to say any more?
Rails is a ghetto has been a thing for over a decade, and the man is basically just a tech contrarian at this point.
Random email auth is some thought leadering for sure.
Whatever way the world is moving, expect DHH to have a different opinion about it.
Just. Use. A. Fucking. Password. Manager.
It isn’t hard. People act like getting users to remember one password isn’t how it’s done already anyway. At least TFAing a password manager is way fucking easier than hoping every service they log into with “password123” has it’s own TFA. And since nearly every site uses shit TFA like a text or email message, it’s even better since they can use a Yubikey very easily instead.
Passkeys are a solution looking for a problem that hasn’t been solved already, and doing it badly.
Yes, use a password manager to store your passkeys.
Passkeys are a solution looking for a problem that hasn’t been solved already, and doing it badly.
You say that and then
hoping every service they log into with “password123” has it’s own TFA. And since nearly every site uses shit TFA like a text or email message
That’s literally a problem passkeys solve and password managers don’t lol
I make the assumption people are using the password managers like they should, which is generating unique, complex passwords, which is kinda the point. Once you hit a certain number of characters on a random password, you might as well not try. And passkeys don’t solve any sort of MFA problem, same as passwords.
And tell me something, do you realize how cunty you come off when you end a comment with “lol”?
And passkeys don’t solve any sort of MFA problem
They do in fact solve this problem. Passkeys are something you have, and are secured by something you know, or something you are.
They also solve an age-old problem with passwords, which is that regardless of how complex your password is, it can be compromised in a breach. Because you have no say in how a company stores your password. And if that company doesn’t offer 2FA or only offers sms or email verification, then you’re even more at risk. This problem doesn’t exist with passkeys.
Edit: lol
it can be compromised in a breach
Sure, and then that one password is compromised. Password managers make it trivial to use unique passwords for every service, so if a service is breached, you’re basically as screwed with passwords as passkeys.
The switching cost here is high, and the security benefits are marginal in practice IMO. I’m not against passkeys, but it should be something password managers handle, and I don’t have a strong preference between TOTP baked into your PW manager and passkeys.
Sure, and then that one password is compromised.
Which means that entire service you used that password to login to is compromised. If you were using passkeys however, you would have nothing compromised.
so if a service is breached, you’re basically as screwed with passwords as passkeys.
No… with a passkey you would be not screwed at all. You’d be entirely unaffected.
the security benefits are marginal in practice
I mean in your own example that’s a reduction of 100%. That’s kind of a huge difference.
that entire service you used that password to login to is compromised
If the password is compromised, it means the service is compromised and the password isn’t really protecting anything anymore. So to me, there’s no functional difference between passwords and passkeys once a service is compromised, the data is already leaked. If I’m using proper MFA, there’s no rush to reset my PW unless the service has a stupid “backdoor” that can just bypass MFA entirely, in which case passkeys wouldn’t help either (attackers would just use the backdoor).
The main value of passkeys, AFAICT, is that they’re immune to phishing attacks. Other than that, they’re equivalent to TOTP + random password, so a password manager that supports both provides nearly equivalent security to a passkey (assuming the service follows standards like storing salted hashes). And honestly, if you use a solid form of TOTP (i.e. an app, not text or email), password security isn’t nearly as critical since you can make up for it by improving the TOTP vault security.
I honestly haven’t bothered setting up passkeys anywhere, because I don’t see any real security benefit. If a service provides passkeys, it probably already supported decent MFA and random passwords. The services that should upgrade won’t, because they’ve already shown they don’t care about security by not providing decent MFA options.
In short:
- passkeys > passwords
- passkeys == random passwords + TOTP
The venn diagram of companies that support passkeys and companies that supported/support random passwords + TOTP is essentially a circle, with the former enclosed in the latter. So I don’t really see any rush to “upgrade.”
Not even close. To be honest you’re operating on so many incorrect assumptions and have such a lack of general knowledge of common attack surfaces or even the average scope of modern breaches, that digging you out of this hole would take so much more than what I can fit in a single comment.
So
If the password is compromised, it means the service is compromised and the password isn’t really protecting anything anymore
No… just no. That isn’t how it works. In reality, what commonly happens is metadata around the service is what’s targeted and compromised. So your password, email, and other data like that are what’s stolen. Maybe in plain text, maybe something hashed that a malicious actor can brute force offline without you knowing. If you’re someone using a password in this situation, your password is then used to access your account, and that actor can do any number of things while masquerading as you, potentially entirely undetected. If you’re using a passkey on the other hand, this isn’t even something you need to worry about. They cannot get access to your passkey because the service doesn’t even have it. You are entirely immune. That is something that no amount of Passwords or bolt-ons will fix.
This is the main value of passkeys, they are not shared secrets. Not only is that a huge difference, it’s the single largest paradigm shift possible. The secondary value of passkeys is that they are immune to phishing. This is also huge, as phishing is hands down the most successful way to break into someone’s account, and happens to even the most security conscious people. If a cybersecurity researchers who write books on the topic can be phished, so too can a layman such as yourself. Hand waving away a phishing immune authentication system is unhinged behavior. And it goes to show you’re not even coming from a place of curiosity or even ignorance, but likely misinformation.
In short:
- Passkeys > Passwords
- Passkeys > Random Passwords + TOTP.
You’re looking at this from the perspective of an educated end user. You’re pretty secure already from some common attack vectors. You’re also in the minority. Passkeys are largely about the health of the entire ecosystem. Not only do they protect against credentials being stolen, they also protect against phishing attacks because identity verification is built in. That is of huge value if you’re administering a site. Yes if everyone used a password manager there would be less value, but only about a third of users do that. And as an admin you can’t just say “well that guy got phished but it’s his own fault for not using a password manager.”
Password managers have only really taken off in the last half-decade, so one-third is kind of to be expected. I know they’ve been around a long time, but major adoption has been recent.
Passkeys will take a while to get wide adoption as well, especially with syncing problems that we’ve seen.
Password managers are never going to hit anywhere near 100% adoption rate. It requires knowledge on the part of the user and in many cases money. No grandma isn’t going to roll her own with keepass. Most likely she’ll never even know what a password manager is. And as long as those users are still out there, admins still have to deal with all the problems they bring.
Incidentally I looked and it’s been over a decade since I started using my first password manager. They’re not that new.
I’m not gonna lie I still don’t understand how passkeys work, or how they’re different from 2fa. I’m just entering a PIN and it’s ok somehow? I don’t get it.
It uses asymmetric cryptography. You sign a login request with the locally stored private key and the service verifies the signature with their stored public key. The PIN on your device is used to unlock access to the private key to sign the login request.
So isn’t the pin now the weakest link and shorter than a password
Typically in most situations where a PIN is used on a modern device, it is not just the number you enter but some kind of hardware backing that is limited to the local device and also does things like rate limiting attempts.
The passkey stored locally in some kind of hardware backed store on your device or in your password manager is the first factor: something you have.
The PIN/password or fingerprint/face to unlock the device and access the stored passkey is the second factor: something you know or something you are, respectively.
Two factors gets you to 2FA.
As I understand it (and assuming you know what asymmetric keys are)…
It’s about using public/private key pairs and swapping them in wherever you would use a password. Except, passwords are things users can actually remember in their head, and are short enough to be typed in to a UI. Asymmetric keys are neither of these things, so trying to actually implement passkeys means solving this newly-created problem of “how the hell do users manage them” and the tech world seems to be collectively failing to realize that the benefit isn’t worth the cost. That last bit is subjective opinion, of course, but I’ve yet to see any end-users actually be enthusiastic about passkeys.
If that’s still flying over your head, there’s a direct real-world corollary that you’re probably already familiar with, but I haven’t seen mentioned yet: Chip-enabled Credit Cards. Chip cards still use symmetric cryptography, instead of asymmetric, but the “proper” implementation of passkeys, in my mind, would be basically chip cards. The card keeps your public/private key pair on it, with embedded circuitry that allows it to do encryption with the private key, without ever having to expose it. Of course, the problem would be the same as the problem with chip cards in the US, the one that quite nearly killed the existence of them: everyone that wants to support or use passkeys would then need to have a passkey reader, that you plug into when you want to login somewhere. We could probably make a lot of headway on this by just using USB, but that would make passkey cards more complicated, more expensive, and more prone to being damaged over time. Plus, that doesn’t really help people wanting to login to shit with their phones.
If you’ve ever used ssh it’s very similar to how ssh keys work. You create a cryptographic key for the site; this is the passkey itself. When you go to “log in” the client and server exchange cryptographic challenges, which also verifies the site’s identity (so you can’t be phished…another site can’t pretend to be your bank, and there are no credentials to steal anyway). Keys are stored locally and are generally access restricted by various methods like PIN, passphrase, security key, OTP, etc. When you’re entering your PIN it’s how the OS has chosen to secure the key storage. But you’ve also already passed one of the security hurdles just by having access to that phone/computer. It is “something you have”.
So one password to access them all basically?
That’s quite a weakness.
It’'s really up to the end device (and the user of said device) to decide how much security to put around the local keys. But importantly, it also requires access to the device the passkeys are stored on which is a second factor. And notably many of the implementations of it require biometrics to unlock.
The “one password” thing is also true of password managers, of course. One thing about having one master passphrase is that if you do not have to remember 50 of them, then you can make that passphrase better then you otherwise might, plus it should be unique, which prevents one of the most common attack vectors.
If you get my master keepass password, you have all my passwords, too.
As I said to Spotlight7573 yes true, I just hoped for something better.
If you’re paranoid about this, go buy a yubikey and use that to secure your device/access to your passkeys. Being able to secure your own data instead of relying on the admin who may or may not know what they’re doing to secure the server is an advantage of passkeys.
So one password to access them all basically?
That’s essentially how all password managers work currently though?
True, I hoped for something better :-/
If it makes you feel better, most PINs on modern devices are hardware backed in some way (TPM, secure enclave, etc) and do things like rate limiting. They’ll lock out using a PIN if it’s entered incorrectly too many times.
It is 2FA. Just easier to use.
I have never understood the goal of passkeys. Skipping 2FA seems like a security issue and storing passkeys in my password manager is like storing 2FA keys on it: the whole point is that I should check on 2 devices, and my phone is probably the most secure of them all.
It feels like the goal is to get you married to one platform, and the big players are happy for that to be them. As someone who’s used Keepass for over a decade, the whole thing seems less flexible than my janky open source setup, and certainly worse than a paid/for profit solution like bitwarden.
That was my take too.
Security training was something you know, and something you have.
You know your password, and you have a device that can receive another way to authorize. So you can lose one and not be compromised.
Passkeys just skip that “something you have”. So you lose your password manager, and they have both?
I think you mean that passkeys potentially skip the something you know. The something you have is the private key for the passkey (however it’s stored, in hardware or in software, etc). Unlocking access to that private key is done on the local device such as through a PIN/password or biometrics and gives you the second factor of something you know or something you are. If you have your password manager vault set to automatically unlock on your device for example, then that skips the something you know part.
I love storing 2FA in the password manager, and I use a separate 2FA to unlock the password manager
I imagine you keep your password manager unlocked, or as not requiring 2FA on trusted devices then? Re entering 2FA each session is annoying
You still have the treat of viruses or similar. If someone gets access on your device while the password manager is unlocked (ex: some trojan on your computer), you’re completely cooked. If anything it makes it worse than not having 2FA at all.
If you can access your password manager without using 2FA on your phone and have the built in phone biometrics to open it like phone pin, finger or face, someone stealing your phone can do some damage. (Well, the same stands for a regular 2FA app, but meh, I just don’t see an improvement)
I went to see HR a month ago and they had a post-it of their password for their password manager. We use passkeys too.
And this was after security training.
If your secrets enter your clipboard, they are no longer secrets
I find phones the least secure devices simply because of how likely they are to be damaged or stolen
More than that. You probably use them in public, where there are tons of cameras. So if you forget you phone in say a restaurant, odds are they have video of you unlocking it.
And let’s not forget all the poorly secured wifi access points people commonly connect to…
It’s not skipping MFA cos some media can provide more than one factor.
E.g. YubiKey 5 (presence of the device) + PIN (knowledge of some credentials) = 2 factors
Or YubiKey Bio (presence of the device) + fingerprint (biological proof of ownership) = 2 factors
And actually unless you use one password manager database for passwords, another one for OTPs, and never unlock them together on the same machine, it’s not MFA but 1FA. Cos if you have them all at one place, you can only provide one factor (knowledge of the manager password, unless you program an FPGA to simulate a write only store or something).
Passkeys are only good if they aren’t in a online password manager. They are better than TOTP 2FA in terms of security and phishing resistance. I see 2FA as a last resort when someone even gets into my password manager. Storing passkeys completely make this useless, as I’m sure anyone that can log into my accounts would’ve done so by getting a hold of my unencrypted password manager database. Unless android provides a real offline way of storing passkeys in the device, I am not interested alot.
Actual zero knowledge encrypted password managers with 2FA?
Keepass?
Or Bitwarden (supposedly)
Bitwarden is an online password manager and no I don’t consider self hosting it offline.
A sufficiently strong password and additional TOTP should protect you well enough.
