AOC is definitely a voice in politics I’ve come to respect. I can assume pretty confidently that her opinion is well founded and with the right intentions… if she thinks Biden is best option at this point, that tells me pretty conclusively that Biden is genuinely the best option at this point.
The debate shenanigans, the age, whatever: all of that is a fraction of a drop in the ocean compared to the shitstorm that would be Trump presidency. It doesn’t matter if any of us like Biden. Do you want a literal fascist running the country? If no, vote Biden. If yes, abstain / vote for literally anyone else.
The DNC is going to run this playbook again in four years. Stuff some establishment democrat down our throats “for the fate of democracy”. I agree that another Trump presidency would be terrible, but can the American people please get a real choice of which Democrat to vote for? Please DNC?
Probably. And when that time comes, I’ll make the same pitch for whichever not-a-Nazi is running against the actual Nazi. Should it be better? Fuck yeah! But if we don’t play along, we get actual Nazi. I suspect we’ll rinse-and-repeat until we’re extinct; but I’d prefer to spend that time with as few Nazis in power as possible.
I’d really prefer another candidate, but under our current system and circumstances, Biden is our best option.
That’s how democracy works. You rarely get to pick a candidate who is perfectly aligned with you. You pick the least bad option.
I wish it was possible to convince trump supporters that he’s literally not on their side
I’ve been making pitches for the libertarian party to my trumpanzee coworkers. It’s a similar flavor of bullshit as the turds the GOP is already feeding them, so they’re somewhat susceptible to it.
No chance in hell I’ll be able to convince them to vote Biden, so burning a would-be Trump vote on the spoiler effect is the next best thing.
One of his better nuggets for this crowd is his suggestion that they “take the guns away first and do [sic] process later”.
I’m sure you’re an excellent spokesperson for ideas you think are similar to maga bullshit.
That party itself in USA is definitely bullshit though
I mean, the local people put up a huge fight in our state fight to change the constitution to allow banning abortion. Printed stickers, organized marches, protected speakers and organizers.
Have you looked at who won the presidential nomination this time? Kinda neat.
It’s a shitshow, and not at all monolithic. I’ve drifted toward left anarchy in the last couple decades, but they’re not nearly as bad as progressives want to paint them.
ideas that are objectively similar to maga bullshit.
When your knowledge of them is bullshit, sure.
You are cute. How far into the shit-filled rabbithole do I have to go into libertarianism before I find your specific flavour of bullshit? Somewhere between rand paul and ayn rand? Or do we go deeper?
Libertarians man. What a fucking joke.
I’m ethically closer to a leftist, but your choices highlight your ignorance but I guess that makes it easier to be smarmy.
I mean, you’re being sarcastic, but being able to give an elevator pitch for something you’re personally against is a great skill. I was a speech & debate nerd in high school, and that was definitely one of the more valuable lessons.
If nothing else, it helps to understand what ‘other side’ is thinking. We (self included) have a tendency to demonize others who don’t align with our values.
Abortion is one of the best examples of this. If you look at the other side exclusively through the lens of the other’s echo chamber, you have 1) misogynistic bigots who want to control women down to their organ function and punish them for failing to adhere to a religious standard that they don’t subscribe to, vs 2) women who recreationally murder babies and redirect responsibility for their promiscuous lifestyle onto the healthcare system.
I think this is why we never make any meaningful progress on that controversy: all of the mainstream arguments are shit arguments in terms of their ability to actually resonate with the people they’re directed at. You can probably guess where I stand on abortion based on my first post here, but I can 100% make a pitch for either.
Other topics are no exception. I fucking loathe the MAGA crowd, but calling them a Nazi isn’t going to change any minds. I didn’t love the LP, but they’re significantly more benign than the GOP. The two have overlap, so fuck yeah I can work with that. I’d love for the LP to continue to grow and refine itself - best case scenario is the GOP shrinks to an obscure extremist group, while any shreds of sanity flock to the LP to make a much more productive rival to big blue. I don’t have to actually support the LP to want them to do well in that regard; if I can boost them at the expense of the GOP, win-win!
Steelmanning is hard. I have gotten better at it, but it’s kinda through empathy rather than analysis.
Abortion rhetoric is a shitshow of fallacies. Almost nobody is willing to slow down. And, yeah, the best part is that while failing to understand the other side’s motivations they’ll accuse the other side of lacking empathy.
I can handle the “trump funny” people, but anyone that genuinely likes Trump drive me batty. I don’t think Trump has any ideals to hold onto to begin with, so it’s all cult of personality shit.
With some exceptions, a lot of the anti-tax racist rednecks have been sidelined - the dinosaurs are dying. I went to the 2020 LP state convention because I was asked to, and I was really happy seeing the dudes that made me leave 16 years ago sitting at a table alone.
Steelmanning
I didn’t know there was an actual word for it!
The abortion shitshow was actually the topic of that lesson because of how tribal each side has gotten. That was… idk, 15 years ago? Not much has changed lol. Initially we were just told to prepare a debate on it, so we ofc pulled heavily from whichever echo chamber we adhered to, and we had all our (very flawed) talking points ready to go. Then the prof dropped the ol’ switcheroo. Thoroughly broke highschool me’s brain - in hindsight it was pretty funny to be in the middle of a room full of people who thought we knew our shit, all suddenly realizing we don’t know squat.
That was a fucking good prof!
The LP… they sound alright on paper. The non-agression principle is solid. All the emphasis on a ‘free market’ sounds nice if you assume corporations elect for ethical practices when they’re not mandated (lol). I can talk em up in the scope of a lunch break; it’d be hard to keep the ball rolling much passed that though.
No, nothing has changed. And that was a good professor. I’m kind of in the place where we’ve picked metrics to decide when it’s fine to let a life go so why can’t we look at the other side and aim for a non-magical start.
The LP has pretty good social ideas. First electoral vote for a woman. First to include sex workers in the party platform. The NAP is interesting because both the left and right are down, we just define aggression differently.
With sane liability laws and a financial system that isn’t built for large corps, a free market could work. Where business has responsibility for its actions and is rated based on customer liability vs assets. Libertarians don’t want no regulation, they just prefer private regulation. Ancaps are kind of the same. So long as we keep trying to patch up our bullshit system instead of addressing root causes, we’ll continue getting fucked.
I’m still kind of a libertarian. My anti-corp and non-propertarian leanings make me somewhat left politically, but I have strong ethics about helping each other and those that can’t really help themselves. I just don’t like using violence to make people do what I want.
I think a lot of people are overthinking this. She’s supporting Biden because as of today the battle is “over”
https://www.axios.com/2024/07/09/biden-house-democrats-withdraw-nominee
No use falling on swords anymore, apparently.
This is going to be awful though, as Biden is going to get demolished in another debate, and it’ll look terrible if he refuses.
- One House Democrat who was in both meetings said: “Most of our caucus is still with him … meaning he’ll stay in. Which sucks for our country.”
Pretty sure ballot rules and campaign finance laws are a big reason why it is too difficult to switch.
Harris would have access to the funds from their campaign, she’d essentially inherit Biden’s war chest. That’s part of why she’s the logical choice, she can actually use that money to hit the ground running in terms of spreading whatever message they need to get out in the event the candidate changes.
If democracy is at stake, and the threat of fascism is serious, they should change the rules and laws.
lmao hahahaha
Someone mentioned it in the thread about Elizabeth Warren supporting Biden. It isn’t odd that smart, anti-wealthy, and anti-Trump at all costs progressives are backing Biden, and wealthy Democrat donors and centrist Democrats are demanding change.
These people see the risk a new candidate would bring. The wealthy just want someone who reflects their image. Either candidate doesn’t really hurt their lifestyle.
It isn’t odd that smart, anti-wealthy, and anti-Trump at all costs progressives are backing Biden, and wealthy Democrat donors and centrist Democrats are demanding change.
The wealthy centrist Dems believe they’re in an excellent position to foist an even bigger turd on the party (I’ve seen Joe Manchin and Michael Bloomberg and - of fucking course - Hillary Clinton floated as “moderate” replacements to Far-Left Super Radical Joe Biden).
The younger and less influential (although hardly anti-wealthy - AOC is a prodigious fundraiser who represents one of the richest districts in the nation) politicians who have already stacked up political favors with the incumbent don’t want to see him casually replaced by an even more obnoxious neoliberal.
That doesn’t make Biden a strong choice. It doesn’t even make him an “anti-wealthy” choice (Biden was fully on board with the Wall Street bailouts under Bush and the Silicon Valley bailouts during his own term). It just makes him the “safe” choice for the AOC-aligned caucus, relative to an even more nakedly corporate convention insider pick.
Part of it has been that Biden has been implementing a lot of progressive policies. He may not be the perfect progressive candidate, but he is a lot better than other options.
Yet another reason why the wealthy class of the Democratic party wants him replaced.
She didn’t though, she dodged the question and the Boston Globe called it support. If she wanted to support him staying in, she would have said that.
Until we know different, me too.
I hope that the DNC is prepared to throw away yet another close election by insisting that running an 80 year old incumbent is better than literally anyone else. Their primary system is completely broken and so we will now be living perpetually subjugated to a small minority in this country.
Fuckos take the worst possible shot of AOC into the article. IDK what’s this mediaite site is, but they seem to present her position as stupid.
Look at how Donald is presented even in articles he’s criticized in.
Yeah the bias is immediately obvious, it’s not even their photo so they very deliberately chose this
Biden doesn’t make policy decisions standing at podium reading a teleprompter. He sits in meeting and has discussions with advisors and has follow up discussions and rewrites policies and discusses votes and rewrites again with further discussions. That’s who I’m voting for and I think he is still able to do that.
They know this already. They aren’t going to be educated on the matter. They’re not voting and working hard to convince others not to as well.
The best thing you can do is call this out when you see it. Ask them to answer how they’d prefer life under Trump’s thumb. Ask them who else could defeat Trump that is running right now. Ask them what are our other options. They’ll do their best to bullshit through responses, but at the end of the day-
They know we have none.
Ask them how they’re support a free Palestine, while being able to see Trump suggesting Israel “finish the job” but that is somehow not enough to vote against him.
These people cannot answer any of these questions in good faith. I’ve asked them, and tons of others have. They distract and counter with bad faith bullshit. Then they disappear- only to reappear elsewhere with the same bullshit.
You cannot reason with, or inform to educate them. They know the facts. And they’re here to urge you not to vote against Trump anyway.
What does that tell you?
Why is this particular political structure and electoral process and set of parties the best? Can’t we be more creative? We can do so much more than vote in this same process which makes us choose the ‘lesser evil’ to save democracy, every election for decades now. I can’t bring myself to legitimize the US and still feel a clean conscience any longer.
Oh we can do a HELL of a lot better. We have weeds here that are more charismatic. But this is where we are because a large portion of our population doesn’t like to do shit about politics until it’s too late- which is a cycle that resets every four years.
America is essentially a cautionary tale on how not paying attention hurts people.
That there are a lot of bot accounts that can quickly inflame an issue with a pretty obvious grain of truth to it. And that there doesn’t seem to be much of a response other than “Biden is better than Trump” or “I support Biden due to his past competence”. Which feels like a very nothing burger of an answer, and instead gives plenty more questions rather than reassurance for Biden’s campaign. Trump is an dangerous idiot and I’d be the first to say not vote for Trump, a frankly sane and common sentiment. Honestly, the more time goes on, the more it feels like the arguments that are posited for voting for Biden without answering basic questions actually feel like they are being posed by bot accounts.
Biden’s accomplice to have been posted time and again in these arguments. I’m not going to repeat them here as Al the times they’ve been listed clearly does nothing.
The fact remains- you vote for an administration- NOT a single man. And his administration has brought a positive.
He is better than Trump because he isn’t a felonious rapist.
That shout be enough. If it isn’t, your president isn’t really your biggest problem.
For 4 years? We need 2 vice presidents if biden doesn’t drop out for me to vote for his dying brain
If the president dies and the vice president takes over then the a new president appoints a new vice president subject to congressional approval.
Aite I guess biden gets my vote then. Mybad i wasn’t knowledgeable about the process.
Take note how all the world politics experts that were yelling “gEnOciDe jOe”, are now somehow experts on cognitive function and one’s ability to run a political cabinet.
Also take note how seemingly overnight- they all shifted their concern to beating everyone over the head with reports on how Biden isn’t up for the job- despite the fact that we all know that news media is in the business to profit from dumbasses that eat this shit up.
This is an obvious movement to disrupt the election. VOTE LIKE LIVES DEPEND ON IT.
Their narrative is that they don’t want an old man incapable of making speeches, yet they’re fine to see for a rapist felon that spent the entire debate lying his ass off.
VOTE!
She knows she has little to gain personally from calling for Biden to drop out and potentially has a lot to gain if she sides with him and he ends up winning. She’s a savvy political operator and deeply cynical.
It’s definitely the right move for her at this point. If Biden steps aside (or dies) before the election, the Democrats aren’t going to nominate someone who didn’t back Biden. Publicly backing lets her stay on the team, and maybe one day have a shot at the Presidency herself (assuming we get more than four more years before fascism wins).
It’s the right move for her career, anyway.
She’s playing the cynical game of the Democratic party. I don’t know if it will pay off.
But fuck she is WAY better than my gerrymandered representative who is a full corporate military machine.
So I don’t exactly have a better representative to even reference let alone represent me. So I’ll take that cynicism until I can get that changed.
You get the cynicism because you keep taking it, it really can’t change as long as you’re willing to settle.
Catch 22
I mean she isn’t my representative so there isn’t really a taking it or settling at work here. I’m trying to oust my own zionist rep where there’s actually a shot.
I just get that she’s up shit creek so I don’t expect her to have a paddle.
Honestly I am more frustrated with the failure to leverage her support. The whole ‘Squad’ and Justice Democrats as a whole should be out laying out leverage to back Biden instead of the ‘Welp, he’s the nominee!’ nonsense. If she isn’t getting any support then I got some criticisms for more than just AOC here.
This seems kind of like the difference between Bernie and Warren in 2020. Both agreed that the primary was over and their previous foe was important to support. Bernie did an admirable job and brought the party together to support Biden. Warren did the same, but she also got a bunch of her personnel picks to staff various agencies. Unifying in a big allied tent is good, but the side you’re unifying with should also be moving towards you as well. That’s what makes it unity rather than just submission.
And I will fully admit that Bernie may have demanded something behind the scenes, and that Warren’s people may simply have been more attractive because they were better prepared and vetted, but despite becoming the main progressive in the primary, the progressive wins in staffing sure look like Warren’s doing.
Warren stayed in the race until after Biden cinched the nominatiom because her dropping out would have likely meant her support would have shifted for Sanders. That was the deal she got, like Buttigeig got a cabinet position for dropping out to back Biden for example. Same with Clyburn’s kids getting appointments for SC.
She’s savvy, but she’s one of the least cynical of the bunch.
She saw how they stitched up Jamal Bowman and chose to protect her job. It’s pretty damn cynical.
To be fair “He is in this race and I support him” is like saying “He’s one of the candidates of all time”. It is a milquetoast, borderline sarcastic endorsement.
It’s what republicans do. Back your team. It’s one of their best plays to win.
No kidding, because she knows he’s going to lose, but if he’s unwilling to step down it’s literally the only play she has at this point.
No one is going to come out and pretend Biden is some great candidate, because he’s not. No amount of fake-hype is going to change his chances.
You SEE the fallout from Project 2025 becoming mainstream?
I see the polling that matches up with every lost campaign going back decades.
Was this the same polling that said Hillary was going to win?
No, that polling was taken regarding a different person 8 years ago.
Rare AOC L. This is absolutely the wrong call.
Everyone who’s paying attention can see that Biden is heading toward a loss with tragic consequences and only digs himself deeper every time he tries to convince people that the sky is green and replacing him is impossible.
Fact is that, despite spending two campaigns saying the opposite as a tactic, Biden wouldn’t lose any sleep over losing. He knows that, because he’s rich and privileged in the US, he’ll be ok when fascism comes.
Apparently he cares less about the vast majority of the population who emphatically WON’T be ok than he does about his own ego and career. Yet another reason why he’s definitely the wrong man for the job and would have been even if he WASN’T on course to lose. Which he is.
I’m not a Biden fan, but sewing discontent is not helpful.
The “I would be at peace” thing is taken out of context as you well know. Biden knows as well as anyone how bad a Trump presidency would be, but how would you have him answer that question? The only possible answer is to say you’ll give it your best and deal with the outcome.
sewing discontent is not helpful.
I’m not sewing anything. My point is that the discontent is already there and it’s only growing.
The “I would be at peace” thing is taken out of context as you well know
No. He said the words in the context of whether he would care much if he lost. That’s how I presented it.
Biden knows as well as anyone how bad a Trump presidency would be
For most people, but not the ones he cares about the most: himself and his rich owner donors.
how would you have him answer that question?
“Yes, losing to the last president and first dictator of the United States of America would obviously be devastating. That’s why I’m doing everything in my power to avoid it”
The only possible answer is to say you’ll give it your best and deal with the outcome.
No it isn’t. See above.
Check username…yep, I don’t need to read that, it will all be propaganda
checks recent comment history if that isn’t the soot calling the window opaque… 🤦
My heroine…
I probably shouldn’t. I work tomorrow…
Lmao, took me a minute to understand the joke.
Realistically, I’m not crazy about Biden, but if we wanted someone better we should have held primaries. Changing now is short sighted and won’t get us a more progressive candidate.
All we’ll get now is someone further to the right of Biden. It won’t be the electorate choosing a new Democratic nominee, it will be party insiders who choose someone even more out of touch than Biden.
Some seem to think Harris would be the presumptive nominee:
https://www.axios.com/2024/07/04/kamala-harris-replace-biden-2024-election
should have held primaries.
… cheerfully overlooking the fact that saying “we thought this was the guy 4 years ago but this other guy is definitely the one” has never gone well EVER?
It went so bad in 68, that we got Nixon.
If our goal this time around is “save democracy by not electing Trump”, is it fun to risk certain loss by switching?
Do you think “we” as voters didn’t want a primary? It’s party insiders the whole way. And if you vote for Biden anyways, you’re saying “yeah, i liked how this worked just fine.” DNC screwed bernie twice, and RFK, Marianne, and Dean this time. Regardless of who you would back ultimately, the DNC removes all democracy from the process then says they’re saving democracy.
but if we wanted someone better we should have held primaries.
Bruh …
Biden and the DNC is why we didn’t have a primary…
They’re the ones that prevented the primary. They’re the ones that decide if it’s Biden. And they’re the ones that would get to replace him.
They’re the fucking problem, why act like voters have any say in the process?
oh my god, you’re right! i totally forgot to schedule the primaries this year, sorry!
You must live in Tennessee.
though he was the only Democratic candidate to appear on the party’s Tennessee primary ballot.
Well, honey, hes losing his ability to communicate clearly just as he should be at that age. Youre support of him is laudable but you gotta think about whats best for the 81 yr old man. The presidency is the absolute most stressful position anyone can undertake. Someone hslf bidens age would find it hyperaging lead to health issues that would detrimentally affect his skills at the job. Bidens results will be worse for both him and us. He is just too proud to admit it. Calmerheads need to work on him to make him see that he is not able to hold the reins anymore and should be about enjoying a well deserved retirement. We need someone that has their fingers on the american pulse and the vigor to work with and for it. Someone like, well, AOC
If it saved this country from itself, I’d be willing for Biden to be chained and whipped in the oval office. We’re not deciding whats best for an 81 year old man, we’re deciding for the entire nation and even the international community especially with NATO on the line.
If we elect the 79 year old instead of the 81 year old, social security is going to get cut and ruin lives for millions of people over 65.
Maybe I agree with some of this comment. But that “honey” at the beginning comes off as pretty patronizing. At least, to me.
Yeah weird sexist vibes
AOC is still a hair to young to be eligible, but I would gladly take Jay Inslee, Gavin Newsom, or Beto O’Rourke. Hell, at this point I’d settle for Florida Man Jeb Bush if that’s what it takes to get swing voters on board.
(People like to shit in Beto, but he almost won Texas, which is more than any recent Democratic presidential nominee can say.)
She’ll be 35 on Election Day, no? And well before she would be sworn in? Plenty of reasons to say she shouldn’t run, but that one seems demonstrably false.
